Will property prices kill Permaculture in Australia?

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by Vagabond, Aug 25, 2009.

  1. Vagabond

    Vagabond Junior Member

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    I was just wondering about the stratospheric property prices in Australia and realized many of the younger couples I know would now never consider a permi lifestyle and instead both plan to work full-time in order to have a dual income to pay off a huge 25 - 30 year mortgage. Many are distressed that, after spending their remaining free time looking after the kids after picking them up from childcare, they don't have any time or energy left to dedicate to "non-essential luxury hobbies like permaculture" (to summarize what someone told me recently). When I was younger, many of my working peers in my generation daydreamed of at least having a nice vege patch and of eventually moving out of the city, maybe getting a boat or a small holiday house, and cutting back on work to spend more time with the kids as they grew up. But for more and more younger couples today, this seems like an impossible dream. So many are now stressed or depressed, taking anti-depressant medication, drinking too much coffee in order to stay awake, drinking too much alcohol after work, often fighting over finances and, in the worst case, getting divorced.

    If this trend continues, I can forsee that eventually all agriculture will be handed over to the big agri-corps and the vast majority of the popluation will be little more than wage slaves desperate to stay employed and struggling to pay off debt leaving little time or enthusiasm to explore their dreams or to buck the trend to live an alternative lifestyle.

    Or maybe I am too pessimistic and just getting old :? What do you think?


    :homework: :drinkers: :pain10: :homework: :drinkers: :pain10: :homework:
     
  2. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    Re: Will property prices kill Permaculture in Australia?

    g'day vagabond,

    well for the young players that could very well be the story, they may just have to work for 20 or 30 + years to pay off a big chunk of what they have in mortgage, and get to near retirement age with the nest empty, before they can sell and secure some money to maybe go somewhere near filling the dream. at present farmers are getting good money for their degraded land if you have the money that is, and those factory farm follies well what is going to happen to them if peak oil is not a pipe dream? (and no one realy knows the hard copy for real answer to that one, well outside the inner sanctum of the cartels or sheiktom's that is), so those factory farms become desert waste land.

    to help with the stress of it all they need to have their future as more than a dream but a target on paper so they can plot their course, must all be in the head not the heart. wage uncertainty is now the norm' that the exeption, as is erroded wage values.

    len
     
  3. purplepear

    purplepear Junior Member

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    Re: Will property prices kill Permaculture in Australia?

    In response to your title "will property prices kill Permaculture in Australia" I need to respond that the two have little in common. People renting can grow much of their food and certainly "care for the earth, care for people" in the little things they do living their lives. There are community gardens to be involved in and if not then start one. Reclaim vacant land, ask some one with land that is not using it if you can in return for food. The elderlie would be grateful for someone young to work with them in utilizing their assets.
    My point I guess is that land "ownership" is not necessarily part of land use and Permaculture is best placed to "care for the earth, care for people and return excesses" With a culture of sufficiency there is plenty for all and it can be fun and rewarding.
    purplepear - intent-observation-intuition
     
  4. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    Re: Will property prices kill Permaculture in Australia?

    We all gotta live somewhere. We can rent for 10 years waiting for the prices to go down and buy a property. But depending where you live you could be paying $100,000 - $200,000 in rent in that 2 year period. Wouldn't we be better off paying it off our own property, even if it is at a higher price.
     
  5. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    Re: Will property prices kill Permaculture in Australia?

    that's right eric,

    it can be more sense to buy, but! once you buy you need a damn good permanent job, one where your salary increases by maybe 10% per annum (need that just to keep up with inflation and devaluation), then there is the daylight robbery part of home mortgages the variable interest rates (yeh ok financiers can add in all sorts of arguments but it is still daylight robbery, how would you be if each year the store owner could come and aks for more money for the fridge he just sold you?). so you need a good career path that allows you to increase earning to keep up with increases in interest rates (no controls and no regulations to say the lender needs to pass on interest decreases but they damn well pass on all the increases). don't forget insurances and rates etc.,.

    mortgage terms are for up to 25 and 30 year terms or thereabouts, and nowadays they want to charge early exit fees if you want an early out say by selling. so needs a good hard look at.

    like has been said might be better to stay put and find an older peson(s) who has yard space and would appreciate the contact and some free fresh food. you may have to work something out about water usage but.

    len
     
  6. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    Re: Will property prices kill Permaculture in Australia?

    A well set up Permaculture property could be producing Organic veggies, eggs, compost, worms, for sale at weekend markets. I knew a guy who retired at 40 and used the takings from weekend markets to pay his mortgage and other bits and pieces he needed cash money for.

    I'm not saying its easy, but with a little thinking outside the box, its not hard to produce the extra income from a property.

    The good thing is, not many people think outside the box, so you have a large open market :D
     
  7. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    Re: Will property prices kill Permaculture in Australia?

    ... mind you i'm saying that as a mid 30 year old still trying to save for our first property. Even with the $14,000 first home owners grant, most banks still require 5% of property value (or more) as a deposit. Thats over and above the FHOG.

    If anyone knows of a lender who accepts the FHOG as part of deposit... i'm all ears! :)
     
  8. purplepear

    purplepear Junior Member

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    Re: Will property prices kill Permaculture in Australia?

    Eric
    I still think you should forget the "possession" thing and life a great life without them. They will always slow you down and it is very liberating to have few possessions. I lived for four years on a property with 2 acres of deveploped market garden and lived in a small converted dairy till it became difficult to get the produce to market. There are similar opportunities to have land to work if you are open to it.
    purplepear
    intent-observation-intution
     
  9. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    Re: Will property prices kill Permaculture in Australia?

    Not looking at it as a possession in my mind.

    Nothing worse than having a Sale sign put up when your renting. I'd like to establish a permi-pad and see the fruits of my labour in the years ahead.

    Doesn't matter if its a friends backyard or a rented property. The big S board can still be added at any stage if your not the ultimate decision maker.

    Be nice to have a property to leave our kids, too.
     
  10. Vagabond

    Vagabond Junior Member

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    Re: Will property prices kill Permaculture in Australia?

    The security and sense of stability that comes with owning your own home can be very tempting, but it can also lead to significant pain later on if you are not prepared financially for changes in interest rates and periods of job loss or reduced income. You should really try to have at least 20% of the property value before purchasing as well as some alternative investments to draw on in case you have difficulty making repayments on the loan.

    To top it off, it is a very bad time to be purchasing property in Australia right now.

    [​IMG]
     
  11. Vagabond

    Vagabond Junior Member

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    Re: Will property prices kill Permaculture in Australia?

    I'm a little older than you but feel exactly the same way. I am concerned, however, that land prices are still in bubble territory. In my case I'm mostly happy (although still a bit impatient) to wait a few years and save while working full-time. This gives me time to investigate various regions in Australia while also studying up on areas that I am interested in such as permaculture and climate change. Maybe I can do some WWOOFing too on my holidays if my wife doesn't mind me wandering off for a few weeks :)

    Whatever you do, don't rush in because of the FHG handout. It appears to be little more than a shallow attempt by the government to prop up home prices, and as soon as there is a hint of recovery, interest rates will likely rise putting an added burden on those with a large loan.
     
  12. frosty

    frosty Junior Member

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    Re: Will property prices kill Permaculture in Australia?

    we sort of have the opposite problem if anyone is looking for good sharing arrangemnt

    viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9954

    frosty
     
  13. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    Re: Will property prices kill Permaculture in Australia?

    Well with us adding a billion, or so, souls to the planet surface sometime soon, I don't see property prices going down. There is only so much "floor space" on planet Earth.
    You can still pick up a few acres out-bush for $50,000 , which has to be better than $500,000 to 1Mil for a Sydney suburban house on a postage-stamp sized block.
    Many of the costs of land and homes are due to government taxes and imposts. Also, the amount of investment money (super,insurance portfolios etc) going into land, keeps prices high.
    I have seen some county councils offer serviced land for a $1 a block, just to get people into their area.
    You never know what will happen in the future- another GEC?
    Predicting the future on present day trends/experience is always fraught.
     
  14. Brown grnthumb

    Brown grnthumb Junior Member

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    Re: Will property prices kill Permaculture in Australia?

    ".... Revolution is based on land. Land is the basis of all independence. Land is the basis of freedom, justice, and equality."
    -Malcolm X

    I believe I must own my land; that it is in trust, or it is communally based; I do not feel like being a serf will do the world any good and I believe it is time for a change in land distribution.

    Where I live there is a property of 26 acres going for 1.2 million which appearently is rather a deal; way to much for me of course.

    Now I am not saying going Khmer Rogue or French Revolution; killing the rich and landowning to give to the average person but I do feel something needs to be done. A very small percent of the population owns most of the Arable land in the U.S. and presumably Australia, I want to grow food, medicines, fibres, etc... but I need land for that.

    Yah I can have a plot on a community garden, or in a backyard, hell I can have a system made on a window box but if you want a career than you have to try something bigger. Maybe I should be like the community in Wales that simply started to live in a protected park and eventually where able to stay because no one noticed them for 10 years. Or beg the government for arable land in my native region; because we all know how much the government cares about agriculture and small holdings.

    So not even in grade/year 12 I am just trying to get more experience; I did a friends backyard and I am planning a community garden which I hope will get my friend (who has way more experience) and I some media attention and through that get people who know people who have land. Go to a UC Davis (which is a major Ag school) and start growing.

    But I can't do much now but search; farmlinks a website that connects prospective farmers with landowners, its more peonage or management than anything else. We need real options for those who plan to do this for their whole lives.
     
  15. Nimrodel

    Nimrodel New Member

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    Re: Will property prices kill Permaculture in Australia?

    This is an interesting topic for me as my sister and I are at both ends of the spectrum so I can easily compare the different lifestyles: She is in her late 20's as is her partner, with two young children and a nice big house in the lower blue mountains on 1acre. They bought it with the idea of putting in gardens and having chooks - I was going to do the design for the property - however in order to pay off their huge mortgage the two adults have to work full time and have even resorted to getting an au pair to look after the kids...so they can work more.

    On the other hand, my DH2b and I are moving in 2 days time to the snowy mountains where we will be renting a nice sized home on about half an acre (some of which I hope to turn into a 'landscaped' mandala style garden if the landlord is nice). Because of moving away from Sydney we can afford this place and still only work part time leaving us plenty of time to play in the garden. In a few years time we want to buy some cheap land, build a strawbale house and produce as much as we can from the land in order to reduce our expenses as much as possible. Even with a mortgage we can afford for me to be a stay at home mum while my DH2b works because we dont buy much, we dont NEED or want much... Eventually we hope to get the land productive enough that we can 'retire' early with the mortgage paid off and make enough cash selling excess produce to the local cafes etc. Meanwhile my sister will still be working 60 hour weeks, never see her kids, and still have a huge mortgage - and one acre of gumtrees and grass to maintain.

    And the one thing causing the difference in lifestyles - land prices!!! Thankfully for those of us who arent stuck on the teat of the consumerist motherbeast :rolleyes: this can easily be overcome by moving away from the capital cities. If only more people our age could take their eyes away from the tv long enough to see the other options :(
     
  16. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    Re: Will property prices kill Permaculture in Australia?

    Grnthumb - Do I read you right - not yet finished high school? You lucky bugger!

    I wish I'd started learning this stuff at that age. Not that I believe that old dogs can't learn new tricks, but I feel somedays that I'll just get the hang of this when they are ready to cart me off to a home for oldies. I'm not going unless they have Fair Trade organic coffee and broad band internet..... And single men :oops:
     
  17. Brown grnthumb

    Brown grnthumb Junior Member

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    Re: Will property prices kill Permaculture in Australia?

    Yah I'm 16; but its like I really want to farm, my mother was a farmer and my father farmed a 1 acre victory garden as a teenager so its in my blood!

    But the land where my mother is from while still pretty cheap for me is rising because after Hurricane Katrina all the people with money moved to a suburb and her town is a satelite of that. Plus its humid and only 56ft above sea level; with no mountains too! So wrong :shock:
     
  18. Isobel

    Isobel New Member

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    It is quite true that will property prices kill Permaculture in Australia.
    It is proved by this schedule that there is a bad time to purchase
    property in Australia. I agree with this schedule.
     
  19. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    Just had my place professionally valued as I make some major decisions about my finances. Unfortunately the work I've done on soil building and planting doesn't amount to much and it's not worth much more than what I cost to buy the land and put up the building 4 years ago.

    Sigh.... So there's a room for rent at my place if anyone wants it.
     
  20. purplepear

    purplepear Junior Member

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    I am reminded that Permaculture is so much more than owning property and there is so much scope within Pc for community land trusts, using commons and sharing resources that in a country with high land prices, opportunity abounds for practicing permies. Use LETS and community facilities and let go of the old dream of land ownership as we really do not own it but it owns us to some extent. Land share is quite now but could flourish in such an environment.
    I would be there in a flash Eco but I am a bit busy holding on to my bit of land.
     

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