GOVERNMENT FOR THE PEOPLE BY THE PEOPLE Isocracy, a government in which all individuals have equal political power. The ultimate state is "derepression" to release bonds of the socialized karmic mind such that Kosmic Kairos, that is cosmic consciousness can occur bringing the individual up to vibrational speed with the evolutionary flow of Spirit. The trick to being yourself, is to become increasingly fearless about being and expressing who you are and impervious to how others see you, through projection of the transcendent vision from the ahumane (nondual) position. Who knows what is going to be needed in 5 years. All I know is that it will be a vastly different world already and a lot of people are going to need help to keep up and move on. The elimination of the toxic fear generated by existing administrations is the most important agenda of the current era. See anything by Alex Jones and John Perkins at google video. Today I found Peter Robbins—Orgone Energy Wilhelm Reich and UFO's, it has some good stuff on the rain making machines as well. https://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 8301856050 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8L3tKddZFic VIKTOR SCHAUBERGER https://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 4275921302 https://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... chauberger https://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 8400404583 —Schauberger Water Vortex Nature Also a man with some answers: John Perkins, Economic Hitman https://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... hn+perkins https://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 3356669182 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjPoeQRewiE Here is the new book by John Perkins https://johnperkins.org/paperback.htm
Whatever you do DONT get angry at any government officials ...Theyll lock u up as an Insurgent......check your dictionary.. If you sit down and demonstrate peacfully YOULL be arrested for being Sedentry (spelling and grammers bad this morning) :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Staying at home intead of going to work..Will be arrestable as a non autherised strike.... In west Australia they ennacted a new law back in the 70s i think where its illegal to meet with 2 or more other people in public..Think theres a few simuler in most aussie states if im not wrong.... Has anyone thought of starting a Permaculture Peoples Party or something like that? They are not STUPID there "fucking dangerous" Tezza
Yea dangerous. A helpful way to look at it is to see light and dark as the foundation of existence, represented as a checkerboard...like the Freemasons do. The dark and light work together in a dance to wake each other up. However as consciousness wakes up the light gets lighter and the dark gets darker. Thus it is the brilliancy of hue of the checkerboard itself that is being turned up with each play of the dice. The light need to get organized, because the dark surely are. With the use of the internet now, and collective creativity and celebration there is a chance for us to get an upper hand. If we do not act fully in response to truth in our lifetime, then we only deserve the tyranny we get. Fear is the only thing we need fear.
GL, Mate, I am pretty sure we've shared postes on this topic here before, but when it comes to The Corporation owning water - nothing is more scary than the Snowy privatisation scam. The Snowy Mountain sell-off is not on the public agenda radar at the moment, but dont think for a nano second it's really gone away. Macquarie Bank, who were behind the Snowy Mountain sell off prospectus are also now owners of Thames Water, which provides water and sewerage to 13 million Brits from London and Oxford. If Mac Bank and its shareholders and clever bastards get hold of the Snowy - they pretyy much control the entire East Coast of Oz - in terms of water and electricity supply, and irrigation. With the Merchant Banker (wanker) Malcolm Turnbull the Fed minister for water, this little Alladin's cave of wealth will be opened up to the Privates once this Fed election is out of the way. Vic had its election 2006, NSW had its election March 2007 and the Fed election will be over by Nov, so that leaves the 3 main players and ""öwners"""of the Snowy safe from an electoral backlash. Of course we the people are the REAL owners of the Snowy scheme, and at one time the best way to protect public infrastructure was to have it controlled by the govt - but not any more. GL you are also right about the tank rebate - it is a carrot to get everyone to buy into the scheme and then -sluggo - we've got you. Also the scheme is a good way to filter out the sort of people who are "early adopters" of these sort of things. Howard in Parlt today is defending the money he is giving to the nuclear industry and the advertising campaign the Feds intend to run to convice the Australian people of the merits of nuclear. No real money for solar or other alternative energy options. errrgh - sorry - can feel a real raving rant about to erupt, so will quit now.! [/quote]
Re: why is the goverment so stupid? I remember Bill Mollison answering a similar question in the mid 90's and he said that he chooses to ignore them and just focus and channel his energy into what needs to be done. If labour get in it'll be interesting to see what happens seeing that peter garret is environment minister............................ Go Oils! (not the black kind!! LOL)
G'day Everyone Earlier today several planning students (myself included), together with our senior lecturer met with Simon Crean (ex leader of the opposition and now minister for regional development) over coffee and cream cakes. We received a well rehearsed (and versed) lecture extolling the benefits of voting for a labor government including a promised $2.7b high-speed broad-band package (courtesy of the 'future fund') etc., etc., etc. (I'll spare you the details :lol: ). But when it came time for us to ask questions and I raised the issue of the big 'S' - Sustainability, Simon (that's what he asked me to call him...does this mean we are on first name basis now, or does he say that to all the students he meets?) went a bit, well, 'funny'. He started talking about everything but the big 'S' word. Anyway, to cut a long story short, my impression was that Simon believes the majority of the voting populace are too busy to be worried about complex issues like the big 'S' word, and that's why the labor party are busy campaigning and offering 'treats' such fast broad-band, etc. Oh, he also said that he was not there to nit-pick at the 'other side', then the very next thing to come out of his mouth was about how his government would have completed a local freeway development project back in 2000 rather than the present government's 2009. At this stage I couldn't stop smiling at him - I really wanted to laugh. Of course I wanted to ask him about the 'S' word in terms of rebuilding public transport infrastructure as opposed to the public/private freeway building projects that they all love so much, but I didn't get a chance. One thing he did seem adamant about was that regional development must begin at the grassroots level - that is, local people working with local communities to solve regional problems (I read this to mean permacultural groups and individuals ). He also said that his government will do everything and anything possible to make this happen. I got the impression he was talking about big bags of money - actually, it was the present government's surplus :lol: . So if this mob have a win later this year, remember to hold Simon to his word...at least before the money runs out :lol: . Hooroo, Mark.
Teela your topics attract alot of attentions, good work. As I've said before I work in industrial plumbing have worked on multistory buildings, mines, wineries and I've been blown away at the pure waste of water, There are Factories that have the potential to catch giga litres from their roof areas, even if they only used the harvested water for processing, as pollution can be an issue, it would certainly take the pressure off of the Domestic supply of good potable water, In the Barossa the other day I noticed 5 huge sheds getting steam cleaned for days and don't know why,,,I see large acres of vineyards being irrigated when its raining,,To me there seams to two sort of industry one is concerned about saving water and the other could care less, The problem here is that the general public that don't see the real picture, I feel sorry for the poor pensioner that rings us up to fix a dripping tap that uses about .001% that evaporate of there garden bed, the cost of our bill converts to about 80,000 litres of bought consumer water, and a few meters down the road is a commercial venture with 100mm water meter clickin over at a few kilo liters a minute, and they put a sign up saying that the tropical garden out front is water from recycled water, why do they have so much excess water in the first place.. The Government Doesn't give a ratz arze about water it comes down to money and the more water they can sell you the better, the river Murray in nothing more than a dry sewer, and it is simply put under to much demand, If their is so much of a water issue why is the government trying to attract more migrants to an already struggling infrastructure, MONEY. The State Government are planning on Damming a river that has almost stopped flowing and then building a desalination plant that is going to cost over a Billion dollars to Brine up the Golf, which takes 60 years to regenerate its sea water,, I grew up in Henley Beach and I'm 36 years old and I can remember the abundant sea life just at the edge of the water, everyone catching fish, white bait at the waters edge and hundreds of jelly fish, where have they gone, you take a link out and the rest goes into un repairable damage South Australia is in some really big trouble, and it is not going to be fixed by this government or the next,
I couldn't agree with you more Dave. This Gov just isn't serious about the water crisis. Every house should have its own rain water tank, not just a piddly little 1000 litre one either but a proper big one...to be buried underground if neccesary to save space. And there should be more research into composting dunnies. Just think...every time a human goes to the dunny it takes about a litre of water to flush and maybe another litre of water to wash hands. Pure, clean drinking water being used to flush dunnies...unbelievable! When an animal goes it just goes...no water required. And every house should have solar hot water, especially here in SA where almost every day is 'fine n sunny'. What is the Goverments solution to the water crisis?...to dig deeper where the water is pumped out from the poor old Murray River, so we can pump out at lower than sea level... or build the Mt Bold Res' bigger so they can fill it with... yep more River Murray water. And hey where are all these pollies anyway? Haven't the silly idiots even noticed that the Murray has stopped flowing...hellooooooooo. I don't have a uni degree and to be honest I aint that smart but even a dumbo like me can see these ideas arn't a good enough plan for a city as big as Adelaide. I can see you don't like the de-salination plant Dave but it's better than the other crap ideas so far. There's hopefully a way to overcome the brining up of the gulf. Build the outlet pipeline longer? Take the salt inland to be harvested? I dunno, there's gotta be a solution, us humans are supposed to be the most intelligent species after all. And money shouldn't be an issue, we now are learning that water makes the world go round not money! Us humans are just a drain on the planet. Some of us, like yourself Dave and others on this forum, are trying to do better, but in the long run it's the Goverments most of us turn to for leadership and example. And who do we have running the country?...a mob of clowns! God help the future generation.
Oh and while I'm on rant here I forgot to add that if I chose to have another baby, another drain on an already stressed planet, I would get a Goverment payement of...$5000...no questions asked, even easier than fallin out of a tree (Not sure if that is the exact amount, something like that anyway, someone may be able to enlighten me) But if I want to do environmentaly friendly things such as rain water tanks or Solar power...well it's like gettin blood outta a stone. Have another 10 babies...'fine here's bucket loads of cash'. But try and do the right thing...'um well fill out these forms we might pay you a pittence for your troubles......eventually'
victorian government Hey there its obviouse we need immediate changes , current government ideologies is on the knife edge of being outdated with there day to day greed poll driven tendencies , there needs to be action taken to remove the ability of the victorian government to effect major inferstructre projects without proper research and consoltations with the peoples of the state EG : Toxic Waste Dumps , Super Pipes , Desalination Plant , Port Philip Bay Dredging , many of these proposed changes border on crimes against the environment and irresponsability towards future generations , this states infastructers and technologies developments are so far behind due to governments lack of foresight and future plannings and things arnt going to improve even with the small example of antiquated public transport systems with rapidly increasing populations and demands on pt due to skyrocketing fuel and operating costs EG : $500 for a single cars rego , so im afraid to say that the incidence of transport system failures will increase dramatically under currant goverment snail pace like ideologies , its natural for the human mind to sleep under the guise of not rocking the boat and lack of awarnesses and informations and laziness , these are some of the reasons why governments appear so stupid :idea:
It may not be much, but I think requiring new homes to have rain harvest tanks is a good idea and rebates for putting one in an older home might help too. This complements the Government's mandatory requirements for most new homes to have rainwater tanks plumbed in . The rainwater tank must be connected to at least one internal household fixture, such as a toilet, all laundry cold water outlet or hot water service. excerpts https://www.sawater.com.au/SAWater/YourH ... +Tanks.htm
greens in the ACT Fear and greed are the only things I can attribute the madness of some of the decisions this government has made. Two great evils. We have practiced permaculture principles in our life since 1990 ish when we saw a doco on the ABC about Bill Mol. We have mortgaged ourselves silly to install nine solar pannels on the roof and solar hot water as well as a rain tank. Many Canberrans are green and left of centre. So when you see the news about the decisions of Canberra, please remeber it is not Canberra a gorgeous rural community of about 350,000 people but the federal politicians they are talking about. :wink:
Fear and Greed Fear ? that we have not acted quick enough to nuetrilise our greenhouse footprint on this earth after 200 years of stupidity and greed , now im exercising restraint while typing this can someone justify to me why Van Mill after a lifetime of work into solar energy technologies/researchs was ignored by all of this countries governments , and has now gone to California to build solar facilities that will totally replace coal !!! why why why wont this country take the lead ??? All politicions and the scum that lives of them lies under oath that coal based technologies cannot be replaced in a modern economy this is a LIE :!: , another thing regarding nuclear fision technologies versus nuclear fusion technologies , these lies are all based around greed they want to follow fossil fuels to exhaustion then replace fossil fuels with nuclear fision technolgies which based on risk/safety alone should be severly limited , the truth is we should bring forth nuclear fusion /development/technologies and put an end to greenhouse emissions and provide sustainable energy for all , we have 60% of Lithium stores in this country yet we are all but ignoring the development projects now underway , bring forth the truth and end the lies also while reducing our tiers of government and make everything transparent , personal records and details of course should be kept private anything else we have the right to know and discuss 8)
The simple truth of 'Why is the Government so stupid' is that they are a reflection of humanity as a whole. Wether we like it or not we vote them in. If things get too bad we overthrow them (ie Russia 1917, America 1778, Burma ?) , Just to find out that that was a bad move. Democracy doesn't work. Socialism/Communism dosen't work.Dictatorships....need I say more? Humanity so loved Gandhi that we shot him (I didn't personally but one of my species did). Our combined history is full of mistakes, what makes you think at this late stage we can change things. This forum is evidence that there is good in the world but I am afraid it is in the minority otherwise something could/would have been done. If we were fit to govern ourselves we would have demonstated it by now.
"takes a deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep breath" we have the gift of life all we can do is our best nothing more nothing less ~ just keep planting seeds conscious seeds "The Creation of a thousands forests lies in the heart of a single Seed" not one of us can possibly imagine the bountiful fruits of our goodwill and efforts to do what we know to be true to ourselves and our community and our earth be humble for you are made of earth be noble for you are made of stars c'mon ... get back in the garden
Teela, The Government should give you a Rainwater tank, water saving shower rose, wind generator and a few packets of seed for every new born, might eaz the load a little :lol: :lol: :lol: :idea: Seriously the government have recently announced not one but two desal plants in an already dieing golf, and one at its most shallow and stagnant point near Pt Augusta, to service the Biggest water user in the state Olympic Dam, Uranium mine, more money based environmental vandalism. Our Dams are at 80% at present,which is good, the only problem is the amount of people using the water, Today i read that our fearless leaders are planning to increase the south Australian population to 2 million in the coming years, South Australia is already stretched to the limits for resources and we need more people, WTF? I can't help but fell we're in big trouble, everyone will be voting green when theres nothing left to vote for..
Another 2 million.....oh boy! thats all Adelaide needs. Didn't I hear something on the news recently about Adelide running out of water by early next year? (I dunno I tend to tune out when the news is on nowdays...it's all bad news anyhow and I'm sick of it) but yeah I think I did hear that and the Gov will have to provide bottled water for everyone to drink. Wow! think of the cost of that. Wouldn't it have been easier and cheaper if the Gov had given everyone a rainwater tank years ago. I've recently been on a property hunting trip down to Victoria. Along the coast it all looks good, but we came home through Eden NSW through the Snowys, Wagga Wagga, Narrandera, Hay, Mildura...home. Going through the Snowys we could see that it was very dry, more like the end of summer not the end of winter. It didn't get much better after that, the more inland we went the dryer it became. Speaking of water saving...one caravan park we stayed in (in one of the dryer areas - ok it was Narrandera CP) 2 of the dunnies leaked, none of the dunnies had half flush systems, and no showers had water saver shower heads, and nearly all of them dripped constantly. And right outside, next door was a dry lake and a sad looking trickle in the Murramidgee River. Shouldn't that be enough to encourage water saving efforts? In fact out of all the caravan parks we stayed at that week I can't think of any that had water saver shower heads and dripping showers seemed the norm. These days water should be treated like liquid gold. Cause soon, least in SA, thats what it's gunna be.
Cut and pasted from the Adelaide Independant Newspaper. How green is Mike Rann? Down at Kilburn, industrial chemist Barry Jones paints a pretty picture of his work. He's explaining his job as production chemist at Solver, Adelaide's largest paint manufacturer. With pigments, solvents, and emulsion he comes up with quite a palette. And to make the colour green his ingredient of choice is a chrome dioxide. But you don't want to get too close to Cr2O3. As it turns out, green is a major irritant. And an irritant gets under the skin of government in the green leathered, green carpeted House of Assembly. At the last election the Green vote was 6.5 per cent, nearly triple its previous best. South Australians elected a Greens member to Parliament for the first time. The State Government is under attack on climate change, air quality, noise pollution, uranium, the River Murray, fish farms, public transport and even -- as at Port Adelaide -- vandalism of the state's urban heritage. In opposition, Mike Rann's Labor Party was champion of the environment. "Too often the Parklands have been seen as land on which to build," Rann said. Now he's seen delight. He'll be watching future car races at Victoria Park through the window of his new, permanent, corporate facility. The Parklands are, apparently, land on which to build. In opposition, Rann appeared in the press and on radio active against uranium. He wrote a little book called Uranium: Play it Safe. It's a load of information about a lode he said should stay underground. Sadly, it's now out of print. Rann sponsored this year's new ALP policy to expand the number of uranium mines. How did Mike Rann go from Don Dunstan's pro-environment staffer to SA's pro-uranium Premier? Australia has no native chameleons, that curious reptile which can change colour from green to brown. But in the upper Spencer Gulf we do have the world's most important breeding zone of the giant Australian cuttlefish, that curious cephalopod which can change colour from green to brown. Marine biologists believe the cuttlefish is threatened by a desalination plant Rann is likely to approve near Whyalla. The water is needed for uranium mining. At the last election, Rann went to the polls with this policy: "Labor has pledged to protect and preserve our natural environments and worked in government to take our stewardship of the natural environment seriously." There are some 200 environment-related groups in SA. They include the Wilderness Society, Conservation Council, Threatened Species Network, Bicycle Institute, Australian Conservation Foundation, People for Public Transport, Friends of the Earth, and Greenpeace. Locally, groups like the Friends of Parks fight to protect their patch of earth or, in the case of Friends of Elliston, their patch of sea. These groups are politically neutral and would support any party which supported their policies. The environment lobby long saw the Liberal Party as its natural adversary, but the groups are not now big fans of Labor either. They once had Great Expectations for How Green is My Valley. "Premier Rann's support of uranium expansion in SA is a cause for grave concern," says Joel Catchlove, joint winner of this year's Jill Hudson award for environmental protection. "We're in a situation of loss in many areas," says a disappointed Conservation Council president Jane Corin. "They haven't put enough money into simple things like weed control so in the big issues like land degradation and species loss there simply aren't the finances." "The Government is going ahead with a billion-dollar pulp mill at Penola without declaring it a major project," complains Duan Butler, of the No Pulp Mill Alliance. "Major project status would have meant an environmental impact study. That's not going to happen because Rann is simply introducing legislation to let the mill go ahead without even knowing what its effects on groundwater or pollution will be." Bicycle-riding Greens MP Mark Parnell says: "Budget priorities on transport are still overwhelmingly focused on roads and freeways. Where's the long-term vision?" Democrat Sandra Kanck says: "Mike Rann should be fighting to put back into the Murray-Darling the water that interstate cotton growers use. The water should support fruit, vegetables, and wine produced by SA farmers." The Liberals' new shadow minister, Michelle Lensink, has taken to the Environment portfolio like a duck to clean water. Her work may make Liberal appear more sympathetic on environmental issues, although Prime Minister John Howard's support for old-growth logging and nuclear power will not be easy to counter. Meanwhile, Rann's Environment Minister Gail Gago is well down in the ministerial pecking order, where the roosters like Mineral Resource Development Minister Paul Holloway, Energy Minister Pat Conlon, Treasurer Kevin Foley, and Rann himself as Minister for Economic Development rule the roost. Ministerial insiders claim Gago knows beforehand whether a particular environment protection measure will be acceptable to Rann, so many proposals supported by her department or agencies aren't formally submitted to Cabinet or Caucus. "She doesn't have the same status as Environment Minister in Cabinet that John Hill used to have," says one colleague. In an atmosphere where standing up for the environment might be seen as sitting down for development, and where the air can apparently be cleared by talk of economic growth, Rann's conversion to pragmatism does not completely surprise the environment movement. The word convert comes from a Latin root, to turn about or change. Were it to come from the French root, then vert would mean, as it does in English, the colour green. But as they know in the paint-making business at Kilburn, it's not all black and white What the critics say? We asked people who normally don't have the same media access as ministers do to rate the government's eco-performance. The Penola pulp mill The developer, Protavia, is planning a billion-dollar mill which will munch a million and a half tonnes of blue gums from existing and new plantations. "A project of this size affects not just the environment," says Penola Residents and Ratepayers Association's Bill Murray. "We also need to consider the socio-economic implications for the whole community." "One of the great aspects of this project is that this will be one of the cleanest and greenest pulp mills in Australia," Premier Mike Rann says. "How would he know?" No Pulp Mill Alliance Duan Butler responds. "He's parroting the company line. It's not proven by an independent study with community input." Transport Last Thursday, Mark Parnell chaired a public meeting on transport services in the Blackwood Hills region. To his surprise, more than 60 people attended. "All the economic powerhouse cities of the world -- London, Singapore, Hong Kong, New York -- rely on public transport," Parnell said later. "Yet it's still regarded here as second choice travel." "One of the real problems is that the services don't connect with each other," says Margaret Dingle from People for Public Transport. "Bikes and cars don't always mix well," says Bicycle Institute of SA's Sam Powrie. "We want money for dedicated green travel corridors." "It's time to consider extending the Noarlunga commuter line to Seaford and the Gawler line to the Barossa Valley," says Sandra Kanck. Greenhouse Gas Emissions The Government has introduced a Bill to reduce greenhouse gas, but the Liberals, Greens, and Democrats demanded changes, saying it wasn't tough enough. "The expansion of the Olympic Dam mine at Roxby Downs is set to send our state's greenhouse gas emissions sky high," says Parnell. "In full flight, the expanded Olympic Dam site will use as much electricity as every single household in Adelaide combined. Urban living In Port Adelaide, a massive real estate development called Newport Quays is destroying the area's unique history. "When the developers move out, what will be left to remind us that this was once a working port?" asks Tony Kearney, chair of the local National Trust branch. Power The Government boasts about how much wind energy has been developed in SA, yet the Government itself has spent very little. Most of the finance is either private or has come through the Commonwealth's Mandatory Renewable Energy Target scheme. Water Not just the wet stuff that comes out of taps. Water management is also about coastal protection. "Marine Parks legislation continues to be delayed, with new regulations that give marine aquaculture zones unchallengeable status. Aquaculture approvals can be granted with no rights of public notification, public comment or public appeal," says Wilderness Society campaigner Peter Owen. Air pollution "Our washing goes red on the clothesline," says Whyalla's Ted Kittel, who's fighting through a local action group to reduce the clouds of red dust released by the town's giant steel mill. "It gets into the kids' lungs, it's everywhere. The Environment Protection Agency was sidelined when they tried to limit emissions. We've got legalised pollution in Whyalla now." Last word "I have always sought to make the environment an integral part of overall government policy and strategy -- to bring it in from the margins" -- Mike Rann, writing in Time for Change; Australia in the 21st Century (Hardie Grant Books, 2006). - Hendrik Gout
This is a great thread - very interesting stuff, but a bit of despair here. There was a time in the UK when people had to keep veggie gardens, chooks, rabbits, and even a pig to feed their families. There was little petrol and few people had cars: horses and carts were common, and everyone used public transport, shopped locally, made stuff themselves, and bartered with each other. Local industry supplied most of their other needs. They knew about compost and manure and when to plant what. They wasted nothing, and scavenged all sorts of stuff. This was the post WWII period of rationing and shortages. All this good sustainable living came out of one thing only - necessity. The world will be forced to recognise this necessity again, and we'll be the ones who know how to cope. More and more I find myself mentally referring back to how my Mum and Dad ( both born nearly a hundred years ago, and gone now) ran their lives.
My Mothers Family is Maltese 8) When I was a boy their yard had every thing in it, as you say JoanVL. Coming to Oz from a War Ravaged Rock in the middle of the mediterranean, it was instinctive to be self sufficient, A few years ago when I first got into growing veggies, the first thing I did unconsciously was to duplicate the things I learnt as a Boy, what actually triggered me growing veggies was, one day I wanted to make a nice hearty winter soup like my Gran used to make for us as kids, After wondering around several supermarkets looking for ingredients that weren't available I then drove down to the local nursery and decided to grow the bloody stuff myself :idea: after spending the rest of that day getting a garden ready I think I ended up getting home delivered pizza. :wink: A few weeks ago my mother come with me to look at some land, and after leaving a property mum says to me, You'll have to get some chooks and breed rabbits, She then went on to say that It was one her jobs on the weekends as a young girl, to help kill and prepare the chickens and rabbits for the coming meals, ( Rabbit Stew traditional Maltese Dish ) I'm 36 and thats the first time I ever heard that story, It a shame that our modern life styles are slowly filtering out all the knowlage our Parents once relied on..
