why does it all cost so much?

Discussion in 'Jobs, projects, courses, training, WWOOFing, volun' started by smitty, Jun 8, 2007.

  1. smitty

    smitty New Member

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    Something has been bothering me for a long time and i just feel I need to say something about it. I have been studying permaculture for a long time even if what I study hasn't been discribed as permaculture. But I have never taken a design course because I come from a lower economical class and I have never felt the need to class job. Therfore to take a design course it would cost me more than what I survive off of for two months. Why is this your problem? I live in the United States right? I should be able to get some money, what am I whinning about...

    Well it seems to me that permaculture is only accessible to the upper (and middle) privilidged classes of the world. If it's help is extended to a "developing" country than it is extended as oh those poor people I will save them. How are you going to change the world with this classist opinion?

    What I am asking this community for: more opportunities for people who don't have the privilidge (money) to pay for a class. If it is a work trade remember that by offering work trade below market value that you are disrespecting and taking advantage of people. This is the same thing that the "man" does to create the class system.

    What works better: asking people to donate to a scholarship fund so that the participants that wouldn't normally be able to come to a course can come and be fully involved in the course instead of focusing on work instead of learning.

    I feel very strongly that any work that the left wing activist community does is worthless if it is classist. Those with money to afford to be "green" make up such a small amount of the world population. As a community, the "green" activists need to reach out to other cultures and classes, moreover they need to try and understand the "others" as equals and learn ways to make programs, course, classes ie the lifestyle accesible to all people not just those with enough money to buy away there guilt.

    If anyone hears what I am saying here and wants to help me get certified so I can be a bridge to different communities please contact me at [email protected]
     
  2. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    Smitty,

    Welcome to the forum.


    Exactly this topic and the issues you pose have been discussed widely in here with divergent views.

    Mollison has always been pro-'charging' for permaculture courses and does so for very valid reasons and well explained reasons. Now this is hearsay only but I believe very few permaculture courses are taught with everyone either paying the same or even paying. Some permie teachers even set their fees based on your income and remember that not all 'payment' is in cash.

    The movement is young and very pragmatic, if you see a course you want to get on - telephone the organiser and talk to them. I organised a PDC in the early 90s and our fees then varied from $300 for the two week course right down to the free level and from memory this was also discussed by the students at course level.

    Something I did get out of that course. The people that paid invariably have thanked me on a few occasions for organising it, I have no idea what the 'freebies' thought as they have never mentioned it again.

    Ultimately you should only pay as much as you think the benefit is worth to you.

    Back to the course I organised via a voluntary . Sadly, I couldnt afford the two weeks of time but I did pay for most lunches for the 15 attendees and could spend a couple of hours a day there. So I have no PDC ticket but I will do a PDC one day and expect to pay good $$$ for the course, then again, if I was on the bones of my arse - I would call the instructor and sort something out.

    floot
     
  3. richard in manoa

    richard in manoa Junior Member

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    An interesting thing about Permaculture is that it attracts people from across the traditional left-right political spectrum. I have wwoofed for Permies who were ex-army and ex-police, from my leftist perspective they were the lackeys of the ruling class and so on, and we had many great debates about the nature of things.
    I don't think your point about focusing on work rather than study is very valid. Sure, if you are scrubbing dishes instead of sitting in class that's a problem, but more likely you will be scrubbing dishes between classes, having great conversations about Permaculture that are just as instructive as the classes. Or if you are lucky you will do a course at a working Permaculture site and you'll be harvesting from the gardens for the meals or whatever you are asked to do will be a part of the process of Permaculture and you'll learn by doing...
    I tend to agree with you in principle, but you know, you are realy wasting energy. Get off your arse and go do a course, whatever it takes. You can talk politics while you're turning the compost, as long as you can turn the compost while you talk!
     
  4. Ev

    Ev Junior Member

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    Re: why does it all cost so much?

    Welcome to the forum, hope you find it helpful

    Sure permaculture courses may seem middle-upper class, but I feel permaculture philosophy and methods to be quite accessable to everyone

    As far as I gathered running courses is what you do when you are clever and have the permaculture thing working for you to make money selling good ideas to middle class people and making them do some work for you
    :D who gladly pay for something they wouldn't bother with because if it was free it must be worthless right is often peoples attitude!

    I have never felt uneducated even though I have never done a course and never really planned to.

    Based on reading books, the internet and my own intuition I enjoy and manage the philosophy nicely for myself.

    There is no "secret" knowledge that you cannot obtain freely at your library on this field.

    That said based on the negotiation principles outlined by the previous forum users I think I will do a course in winter... there afterall is bound to be something interesting and useful I could learn from people on the course.

    Thanks Smitty for posting your topic... I shall enjoy my course when I go
     
  5. Sonya

    Sonya Junior Member

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    If permaculture educators don't charge a fair price for their courses -taking into account the money they have paid for their own permaculture education (PDC, CERT IV etc), accreditation, setting up the curriculum (a lot of time and money), preparing the gardens, buying or making teaching resources, buying books & dvds, photocopying, advertising the course, producing flyers posters etc, phone calls, factoring in meals, insurance costs etc etc etc - how can permaculture education possibly be sustainable?

    If they do it on the cheap or for free, they will at some point have to throw in the towel on pc education and go back to paid employment.

    I believe you can devalue a course if you offer it at a low price - I've offered free courses and had no one bothering to turn up who had booked in. Many permaculture educators have said the same thing, I thought I'd offer free courses to get some experience, but no one turned up and I was advised by those who have been doing this for a long time to charge for it.

    That said, I think pretty much all permaculture educators will offer a couple of 'free' spots on their pdcs for people who are geniunely interested in pc, but can't afford the full fee.

    A lot of people I know within the pc community who have pdcs certainly aren't the 'upper (and middle) privilidged classes of the world' they just put permaculture high on their list of priorities and see it as an investment in themselves and the environment.

    Sonya
     
  6. spritegal

    spritegal Junior Member

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    Well said everyone.

    Personally I don't like "classing" those that attend/run permaculture courses. What is the point? Doesn't make the course better run or the students better learners. The PDC course I attended last year had students ranging from an obstetrican with about 4 degrees and head of a hospital unit, through to a 17 year old homeschooler. Some people paid upfront. Some people paid in instalments. I'm sure, with the quality and calibre of the three teachers running the course, that if someone was unable to pay monetarily, they would have been able to pay "in kind" or to barter.

    I totally agree that if you get something for nothing, you will not value it. I've sold things for $1 which I would have been happy to give away for nothing, because I wanted the individual to value it. Same goes for coursework.
     
  7. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    We host PDC's here. We pay for the teachers passage to Belize, pay for their time, provide food for 22-28 people, and we charge about USD300 less than other places do.

    We provide roughly 4 scholarships for people working in Belize.

    This year, after the cost of the food we don't grow, the labour costs, etc, we about broke even.

    I slept 5 hours a night for two weeks straight.

    It costs money to get a course going. If the course has critical mass, enough people to make it happen who are paying, then we can afford to provide scholarships.

    The course I took, about 16 years ago, was tought near here, and I was given a steep discount.

    Smitty, I think if you can find a course near where you are and express an interest in taking the course for a reduced price, the teachers would probably work with you.

    Having said that, the m oney I spent was about 1/10th as valuable as the course I took. If you have land, or are thinking of getting land, money spent on a course would be money well spent, IMO.
     
  8. mereki

    mereki Junior Member

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    Well Smitty, as a jobless university student, i was likewise sceptical when i saw a PDC would cost me AU$1500. i compared it to a university subject - 4 hours of class per week, if you even choose to attend, for 13 weeks. After exams, it is unlikely you will remember most of what you learn. A typical subject here may cost $500-$800, and full time workload is four of these per semester. So if you consider the PDC to be classist, maybe comparing it to the cost of even public education will shed light on the issue.

    A bachelor of science gave me great background skills, but i expect the PDC i will attend in September to be more critical for my future. I therefore have ensured i have means to pay the full price, because, perhaps then those who live with less can learn as much. The nature of the on-site learning and catering means far more costs and effort from permaculture teachers, than for some university or high school educators for example. It is also good to know, that if i become a teacher myself, a fair income will be available.

    cheers
     
  9. Tamara

    Tamara Junior Member

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    Some teachers, will give a place in a course to a person for free, sometimes even pay for that person to do a course.

    If you are really keen, give a teacher a ring.

    Alternatively,

    WOOFing with teachers is generally very cheap.

    Good luck,
    T
     

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