who digs who does not dig and who uses mixed methods?

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by hedwig, Jun 13, 2007.

  1. hedwig

    hedwig Junior Member

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    I always hesitate using the no dig method, because of the heaps of material one has to buy. and at least in winter I prefer to sow directly. And I think at in suburban gardens one should over once, because of the things you dig out: old batteries, tubes, asbestos sheets, big stones etc.
    On the other hand side mulching is quite good for bigger plants and if not planted too densely.
    Who grows green manure in a small suburban garden? Do you slash it dig it under or hoe it?
    Who uses strictly the no dig method? Do you even not hoe? How do you prepare a seedbed? Who uses mixed methods?
    and in which climate does no dig best?
    And: has the no dig method roots in some sort of traditional agriculture maybe in he tropics?
     
  2. Loris

    Loris Junior Member

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    We have a nice block but it has no soil to speak of - gravel over clay. So we do a thick mulch no dig to start off, then green manure and adding everything we can get our hands on like horse manure etc. After a couple of years, we can build up the soil to such an extent that it can be rotahoed and used like a conventional garden.
    When the mulch is thick, we will make rows or mounds and plant into them. Once established plants like pumpkins and melons are very successful just on mulch.
    When I put the manure on, I plant potatoes in that spot as they don't seem to mind it and do well.
    So no dig mulch and then conventional soil all play a part in rotating things through the seasons.
     
  3. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    g'day hedwig,

    we never dig and we sow seed if and when which is rarely, my success in germinatiing are known for their failures.

    are you of german descendants?

    if so send me a p.m i have created an online family ancestry that may interest you??
     
  4. hedwig

    hedwig Junior Member

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    hi gardenlehn, yes my ancesters are German and I spend actually most of my life in Germany. We moved to Australia two years ago.
    As for your no dig approach it does not really encourage to use the method.

    Loris your approach is a mixed one. Do you hoe after each crop? Our soil seems to be pretty much the same clay with heaps of pebbles.
    But I am really happy having digged once for getting all the debris and the big stones out.

    Our compost is not working as good as in the old place no idea why, perhaps the site is too sunny.

    There are plenty of threads here about the topic...
    Does anyone know studies undertaken of the pros and cons?
    All you can find on internet is no dig is wonderful just buy three bales of lucerne four bales of ...aren't there some more objective informations like is suitable for xx crop xx climate etc.?
     
  5. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    g'day hedwig,


    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????????????????

    len
     
  6. hedwig

    hedwig Junior Member

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    if all your crops fail to germinate!
     
  7. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    that has nothing to do with the way we do raised beds and no-dig. that is me why seeds don't germinate well or maybe not even me could be the seeds? have tried growing trays , pots special seed raising mixes have done better direct seeding into beds but still either end up with nothing coming up or way too many, so i buy seedlings for most things at elast then i get the amount i want without the wait and water waste. i only direct seed things like pumpkins, spring onions and beans etc.,.

    can't make sticks grow either some call them cuttings.

    len
     
  8. hardworkinghippy

    hardworkinghippy Junior Member

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    I never dig, but I do rake the soil and hoe the top layer to let the chickens get at the bugs and weed - but I hardly ever put seeds directly into the garden because I have to cover them up to protect them from my chickens.

    Our NO DIG vegetable plot
     
  9. seussrules

    seussrules Junior Member

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    Fantastic photos - where is your garden, HH?

    I never dig. I helped set up a large community garden about 15 years ago. The site was where some stables had been, and there were quite a few slabs of tar that we pulled out over time. However, in my own backyards, I don't dig. Sometimes I let the birds do it for me, but mostly I am a happy sheetmulcher. I guess it can be a bit expensive to get things started this way, but these days I am less scientific and more opportunistic and am usually able to make do with whatever materials are nearby for this...
     
  10. hardworkinghippy

    hardworkinghippy Junior Member

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    Thanks Seussrules,

    I'm an opportunist too, but I'm lucky because we've got loads of goat and chicken manure and woods nearby where we can cut poles for raised beds and stakes for everything.

    We're in south west France.
     
  11. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    I don't dig either because of my dear beloved worms. Once you run a tiller through the soil and they get cut to ribbons, it's a sad day. :(

    I always keep at least 4-6 inches of leaf/straw/pine needle/grass mulch on everything all the time. It saves a ton of water and makes my hard clay soil into the perfect water-holding sturdy soil that I love. My soil is never entirely dry, it's always movable with a trowel, it's always covered with leaf/grass mulch.

    I grow from seed because of the wonderful variety, but also I can tell if something is going wrong much sooner, and start another. The little plants also seem to better survive the chewing insects that might take out a little seedling that I started in place from seed.

    I just pull the mulch aside in places I want to plant, pull some soil to the side with a trowel, insert the transplant, add compost over the top and replace the mulch.

    The heaps of material are crucial for an organic garden anyway, so collecting it from neighbors, growing your own, getting a few bales of straw or alfalfa (which are a nice decoration) is what makes a huge difference in the quality of your soil and vegetables.

    And you know the permaculture way is to grow your own by planting nitrogen fixing shrubs that drop lots of leaves to give you what you need without hauling it all the time, eleaeganus (am I ever going to learn to spell this???), hardenbergia, perennial sweetpeas, Siberian pea shrub, perennial lupin. These are also drought tolerant, and my mature shrubs are on their own for 8 months at least. Plant every 20 feet or so, trim off 3 inches at a time, providing greens for your mulch, giving you those heaps :)
     
  12. hedwig

    hedwig Junior Member

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    Does No-dig gardening means that you do not hoe or only that you do not dig? (perhaps I like hoeing)

    hardworkinghippy, you have an amazing garden!

    Growing the heaps of organic material yourself is really the best way and carbon neutral. But we're having a suburban block 400 sqm and a bit of a luxury chicken run.. Our neighbouors give us the grass clippings, but there is o grass in drought.
    what are these plants? temperate or subtropical? Where to purchase seeds?:

    ardenbergia, perennial sweetpeas, Siberian pea shrub, perennial lupin. These are also drought tolerant, and my mature shrubs are on their own for 8 months at least.

    I've got two problems with the no-dig method:
    1. to purchse heaps pf materials
    2. I like direct sowing
    Furthermore I prefer digging big stones etc. out first.

    gardenlehn, germinating seed is really easy. they mus be waered every day and perhaps it is better not purchsing the cheapest seeds, Ede are good. Buit there are seeds which are difficult..
     
  13. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    that means to me no told what so ever, i turn nothing in i leave that up to the worms and other soil bugs, i have no compost heaps or worm farms that all happens in the beds. adn no-weeds and minimum watering water-wise. don't know what's not to like about the process????

    too easy mate.
     
  14. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    hedwig, I've been told where I am is like Perth, Mediterranean, 8 months of no rain in summer, about 24 inches in the winter (temperate amounts,) no snow, very little frost, so we have drought tolerant plants. All the plants I listed do well in temperate climates, no snow, no hard freezing, and once established don't need water during the summer if heavily mulched, but you'll get more clippings off them if you give them some once a month.

    I do prepare the beds once, so removing stones, blending in pine needles, granite sand and compost happens once. Then the mulches do the rest.

    I've only started those shrubs from cuttings. They are widely available here, and perhaps your local nurseries might have them? The shrubs are great because they don't create the shade a tree would and you can plant right up near them, keep the bottoms clipped. I've raised mine on gray water from the house, so they are not fussy. They work great in the center of the garden, so they drop leaves on all sides that can be easily hoed out to cover the whole garden. Hardenbergia requires a trellis. A lot of our drought tolerant plants are native to Australia.

    Here's something interesting, a type of elaeagnus indigenous to Australia, Millaa Millaa Vine (Elaeagnus triflora) ...

    There is an elaeagnus tree, a Russian olive that gets to 20 feet, and that may be more than you are looking for. I have an elaeagnus pungens Silverberry, which is a 8 foot shrub if left untrimmed. So be careful which seeds you get.

    This one is similar to the silverberry.

    https://www.desert-tropicals.com/Plants/ ... andii.html

    Is there any way you can buy even one bale of straw, it goes a long ways, I can mulch the bases of 20 fruit trees per bale, and it's only $5 here.

    You can direct sow with mulch. You've seen seeds come out of compost heaps? Just pull back the mulch, put the seed down, cover it with compost, put maybe an inch of leaves over it, (except for tiny seeds, wait until they sprout). As it gets bigger and bigger, make the mulch thicker and wider around the plant. I put shade cloth over the rows of seeds I'm starting until they are up a finger height or so.

    When you say you like to hoe, are you hoeing weeds out or preparing the beds? Heavy mulch eliminates weeds, for the most part. I'm always hoeing mulch and compost, and moving it around that way. I whack out the occasional weed escapee. I think the kind of hoeing changes, but it's still a part of no-dig.

    Here's a good deal on the sweetpeas:

    https://gurneys.com/product.asp?pn=01047 ... 1181836443

    I'm only finding cuttings online for the hardenbergia.

    And always spread your mulches with gloves on.

    When it comes down to it, how we garden is half the pleasure of it, so if you love the way you do it, that is what counts. And maybe during a drought you can try the heavy mulch approach, and go back to the way you like best when it starts raining again :)
     
  15. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    hardworkinghippy, wonderful pics! Beautiful garden! Thanks for sharing those! Is that amaranth in the Garden Chicks and Herbs pic? How do you use that? And maybe you should get in on our raised-bed debate, pros and cons, why you prefer them :)
     
  16. Veggie Boy

    Veggie Boy Junior Member

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    I love my no dig gardens, but the current water restrictions have all but ruined my ability to garden in a conventional manner.

    Over the last year I have been putting most of my efforts into my Aquaponics setup, which is why I haven't been around here as much. Although I still only have a small system, it is very productive in terms of vegetables adn I also have been able to grow my Jade Perch from fingerling to plate size (about 600 grams now). I have just put a summary of my system here https://www.backyardaquaponics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1618 if anybody is interested in having a look. I am planning to instal my big system within about 3 months - so that will be fun. I plan to grow about 250 fish a year for family consumption. The fruit and vegetable mass coming out of my system will be massive.

    I can't wait until I get my rainwater tanks insalled and we get a bit of rain - because I will put some efforts into my soil gardens again. Not everything can be grown in my Aquaponics system, so for me it will be a matter of getting the best out of both worlds.

    You will see me spending a lot more time here again soon.

    Veggie Boy (VB)
     
  17. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    Veggieboy,

    Wonderful to hear of your successes to date - well done. I think any gardening situation has some limitations and aquaponics isnt suited to all plants but for a 'complete system' it does very well.

    I have read a lot about aquaponics and have raised fish in past times but never played with hydroponics or aquaponics.

    What I think with aquaponics is that it is early days yet and there are untold innovations to come that may well include ducks, rabbits, earthworms as well as the current fish & plants. Meaning a closed loop home-based system that doesnt require external inputs. I know there are duck/chook/ fish systems operating in asia.

    Just on the water restrictions - are fishtank/pools restricted in your area?

    BTW, do you process your fish [carcase] waste in any way??

    floot
     
  18. Veggie Boy

    Veggie Boy Junior Member

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    Hey Floot

    I am allowed to top up a pond by bucket at any time. Although a bit of water is lost from the system - mainly through transpiration, it is not a huge amount, so topping up by bucket is not a big issue - especially since the tap is close to the tank. Once my rainwater tanks are in - this will no longer be an issue at all.

    I actually haven't harvested any of my fish yet floot, eventhough they are ripe to be harvested. Will probably do my first ones sometime soon. The scraps will go to the chooks (once I get some new ones - they got eaten a while ago and the chook pen renos have taken a back seat to AP. Only a couple of hours work needed to finish the chook pen, so that will happen within the next month or so).

    Regarding a fully self sustaining system, this is no doubt possible, but I simply do not have the time to grow and prepare all my own fish feed, especially for 200+ big fish. I do supplement the bought feeds though.

    I am trying to source an organic pellet to feed them - then I will be much happier.
     
  19. SueinWA

    SueinWA Junior Member

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    Hedwig,

    Sometimes I have to dig, but I prefer not to. I have very acidic soil, so I may have to dig down about 6"/15cm to mix in lime to bring the pH nearer to neutral. I am going to try applying the lime just on the surface in one area, to see how that works.

    Mulch can be anything. Forget about people telling you only to use certain expensive materials, and not to use certain other things. If they're not contaminated by chemicals, they're probably fine to use as mulch. All you have to do is keep it thick enough to prevent light from reaching the soil. Weeds, leaves, old hay, old straw are great. Light tends to trigger germination of existing weed seeds, but if you purposely place the seed heads on the bottom of the pile, the combination of lack of light and the decay mechanism will often rot many of the seeds in place.

    Mulch has several purposes, and it does all of them well: it feeds the soil, it feeds the earthworms and micro-organisms, it helps keep existing soil moisture from evaporating, and it generally protects the soil from heat, ultraviolet light and wind.

    If you just watered a patch of soil well, then immediately covered it with a thick layer of weedy mulch, and added any earthworms you happened across (put them underneath, away from the sunlight that kills them), after a while you could probably pull back the mulch and the soil would look entirely different than it did. The earthworms and other soil creatures will start working right under the mulch, and as the mulch starts to rot, they will take it under the surface, improving the soil.

    Soil is a living thing. Digging it up and turning it over doesn't do it any good. Why go to all that work if you don't have to? I know it may be because its what you're used to. My sister lived in Germany for a few years, and she said the gardens there were meticulously groomed... but totally lacking in anything resembling mulch.

    Turned over soil, drying in the sun and heat; dead and dying earthworms and soil organisms; soaking and soaking with water during the droughts that Australia has been having.... I don't understand why this would be more attractive than a healthy, growing, moist, mulched soil.

    I had a half-dead weedy/grassy area that I wanted to turn into garden beds. I watered it well, covered it with cardboard, then piled all kinds of weeds, chicken-pooped straw and tall handcut grass onto it and left it over summer and through the winter. When I pulled back the mulch in spring, the grass and weeds were dead and decayed, the soil was soft and moist, full of earthworms, and all I had to do was sow the seeds and set in the small plants. As the seeds sprouted and grew, I shifted the mulch closer around them. Did I miss lifting of the sod, pulling the weeds, digging, turning and fighting the rocks (quite rocky soil here)? NO.

    Just jump in and try it with all the weeds and wild grass you can find. Keep it thick. You'll love it.

    Sue
     
  20. IntensiveGardener

    IntensiveGardener Junior Member

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    digging the "right" way

    Hedwig,
    I use a mixed system which tries to emphasise the benifits of each method. I do not hoe but i do dig. seeds are raised in a sepperate seed bed or flat and transplanted. Mulch is used thickly on perenials and thinly on anuals where necessary.

    Digging:
    I beleive there is a right and a wrong way to dig the soil.
    Soil should not be turned over!
    Rotary hoes are VERY bad for the soil, they destroy the soil life, earthworms and soil structure. They mince the soil, bring to the surface weed seeds etc...
    When earthworms eat organic matter and burrow down into the soil they create vertical cappilaries in the soil which carry water from the subsoil to the surface (in a similar way to how kerosene seeps up the wick in a lamp.)
    Rotary hoeing destroys this.
    I dig the soil by either lifting it with a strong fork to put air into it and increase its depth (i do not turn the soil) or if the soil is very compacted i double dig it once by lifting out the top foot of soil with a spade and lifting the subsoil in the trench with a fork then putting the topsoil back. The soil stratas are not mixed together. subsoil should never come to the surface.
    Obviously digging in this manner does cause some damage but 2cm of compost incorporated into the top few inches repaires the dammage quickly, even better if supplemented by mulch.
    Also the soil life which is killed in this process decomposes and creates a short burst of fertility.
    Tilling machines seem like a wonderfull energy saving fix to organic agriculture. In reality however they often do more dammage than good. Also in terms of Kj energy they use much more than the human body to do the same area.

    Mulches:
    I do not use mulches to feed my anual plants. I use a thin mulch of high quality, weed free material to prevent weeds when the vegies are small. (I use a thick permantent mulch on perenial beds.)
    For anuals the plant food comes from the compost which is well aged and incorporated before planting. I find i use less organic materials using this method for the same (or better) results. This is important because i aim to grow all my own materials. I grow lots of green manure/ carbon crops but do not dig them in. I wait until they are fiborous and mature and cut them for compost materials or mulch. Most crops have between 45 and 120% of the above ground biomass in their roots, these decompose and greatly assist the soil cappilary formation.

    My reasons for the emphasis on prepared compost over sheet composting are:
    1. growing plants in well decomposed material is better for health than growing them in a putrifying pile of scraps (pumpkins the exeption)

    2. if you are short of materials compost increases the carbon efficiency by turning your materials into a high quality material quickly. By weight less compost is used than if i were to permantent mulch for similar results.

    I'm aware that much of this is contravercial to hardened permacultureites and admittedly it is more labour intensive. The permanent mulch system is a good one however this is what has worked best for me.
    The climate here is temporate to cold, (frost, hail, occasional snow)

    In some ways this is based on philosophically opposite principles to permaculture. Rather than trying constantly to lessen human interference and involvment with nature this system seeks to dramatically increase it but to do so in such a way that the human input is overwealmingly positive.
    The taoist idea of "wu wei" is worth a mention here. Some claim this idea means "non action" but really it translates as "action that does not interfere with the harmony of things.

    Hope someone finds this interesting/usefull,
    Sorry for the long rant,
    Cheers, I.G
     

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