when should I sow tree lucerne?

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by davenz, Jan 13, 2008.

  1. davenz

    davenz Junior Member

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    I have a bunch of seeds I'd sown in December (9th) and I'm only seeing germination of about 1/12. I did scarify them by boiling and leaving overnight. Is there an ideal sowing season for tree lucerne? And if it's spring/autumn because "you sow everything in spring/autumn silly" please tell me so 'cos I'm a noob :)

    I have maybe 75 or so left to sow so waiting for your sage advice!

    Oh, and while I'm on the subject - is there any other way to ensure those pink nodule thingies appear other than:
    1. adding rhizobium inoculant at sowing time
    2. sowing into inoculated soil already

    Both of which are troublesome because most people round here don't know what I'm talking about when I mention "rhizobium inoculant" or they have to courier it across country for $20 a pop when I only want to sow a dozen seeds and it might not be the right stuff anyway (BeckerUnderwood's NODULAID?).

    Lastly, how and when do I check properly that nitrogen fixing is happening without killing the plant (I only have 3 very fragile seedlings so far!)?

    Thanks!!
     
  2. Jez

    Jez Junior Member

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    G'day scoob,

    At the risk of sounding like a broken record yet again, please people, if you're asking questions include your (at least rough) location and climate details and anything else relevant to your particular growing conditions. There's a facility for adding your location in your profile and you can edit your profile at any time by clicking on the 'profile' link at the top of the page.

    Who knows how many questions get passed over or not quite answered right because the answer is dependant on these things and people can't be bothered asking you what your climate/soil etc is like?

    That wasn't aimed just at you scoob, heaps of people do it. :D

    I'm going to skip your 'ideal time to plant' question because it's climate specific. :wink: Soil temps of 20C and above certainly improve germination rates with Tagasaste.

    I'm going to assume you're in Australia because of the link. That means that on Dec 9th you've sowed the seeds on the last part of the waning moon phase. For best germination results, sow seeds in the first quarter of the waxing phase of the moon (between the new moon and the moon being halfway to full). Between the first quarter of the waxing moon (half full) and the full moon is still ok, but not quite as good (in my experience at least - some people say go for it during that entire 11 days from the new moon to the full moon). Planting on the right phase of the moon does give better germination/transplanting success rates.

    Tagasaste seed only requires soaking in warm water overnight (topped up with more warm water if it's in a cold place) to germinate, not actual boiling. Apart from some exceptions (which I won't go into because they're not relevant in this case), seeds with a hard coating generally only require an overnight soak in warm water to germinate, or boiling water poured over them - not being actually boiled in water (which is what I assume you've done?).

    As to the innoculant issue, in my experience coating the seed at sowing time is the best way to go. You should be able to find a decent nursery which supplies the right amount of innoculant with the seeds you buy - e.g. Green Harvest (Click). As long as you have used a decent supplier and handled the innoculant correctly, you can be confident the nitrogen fixing is happening.
     
  3. davenz

    davenz Junior Member

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    Thanks Jez. You're right of course and I hope this posts shows my updated profile. I'm in Hamilton, NZ which is an hour from Auckland. According to a moon calculator I would've planted just before the new moon so that sounds alright. I recall air temperatures were just reaching 20 degrees at that time. I just read an internet article that indicated sowing at the minimum temperature (20 degree for tree lucerne?) would inhibit germination so maybe that's something to do with it.

    What about seasons? A new moon quarter happens every month so does that mean as long as it's the right phase and the right soil temperature (and heating up) I should be fine?

    Re: scarification. I boiled the water, let it cool down for a few minutes then put in a jar along with the seeds and let cool overnight.

    The seed supplier I found didn't supply inoculant, I guess I'll have to look around more. I've heard we have trouble importing inoculant.

    Many thanks for your help!
     
  4. Jez

    Jez Junior Member

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    Air temperatures don't necessarily equate to soil temperatures davenz, particularly in temperate climates. Tagasaste will germinate a bit below 20C, but the further down it goes the less successful germination you get - 20C or a bit above is optimum. I'd suggest that this might be the reason for your problems...though in isolated cases you can do everything right and have just got a poor batch of seed.

    Tagasaste transplants quite happily, so starting them off in pots/tubes is one way to get their soil medium up to the right temp more easily.

    Yes, right part of the moon phase and right soil temp and you should be fine - if the seed itself is ok.
     
  5. Permibeginner

    Permibeginner Junior Member

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    Jez I just got a load of tagasaste seed from green harvest and their advice is to boil water add the seed and boil for one minute, leave to stand in the water until cool then plant out having innculated with the soil included with the seed.

    So being an absolute beginner and not having read this I did just that. Hope I get sufficient sprouts :) Still I have more to play with. I only used half.
     
  6. Jez

    Jez Junior Member

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    Shouldn't be any problem with that PB as long as it's a very brief boil rather than for an extended period (which was my concern when davenz said he boiled them). I've always had good germination rates with Tagasaste just using water at perhaps 70C to soften up the outer shell of the seed, but either way you should get a similar germination rate.
     
  7. Permibeginner

    Permibeginner Junior Member

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    Thanks Jez I will try that next time :)
    PB
     
  8. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    try transplanting smaller to Medium sized taggas they take very easy and will reach 6/8 foot in 1 growing season


    Tezza
     
  9. Jez

    Jez Junior Member

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    Why do you get the urge to say things like that Tezza? Is it a deliberate attempt to cause conflict, or just 'your way?' :lol:

    Where has anyone said otherwise?

    Tree seedlings can only get rootbound or damaged in pots when you either start with the wrong type of pot or wait too long to plant it out. Pots and tubes are invaluable for starting off trees in areas where soil temperatures struggle to reach the required germination temperature (which appears to be the case in this instance) and for many other reasons. You do realise there are wholesale forestry nurseries and many other nurseries out there who manage to grow millions of trees in tubes and pots without suffering "heartache?" All because they work out the tree's requirements rather than just guessing...and failing.

    No problems except the fact your exotic legumes are not able to access any nitrogen from air.

    Australian soils often have very low natural presence of nitrogen in the soil. That's why Acacias, Casuarinas etc have evolved to fix nitrogen from air - there is very little in the soils they have evolved in. Exotic legumes (including tagasaste) don't have the same genetic traits...they come from soils where the bacteria they need to fix nitrogen from air is naturally present and these same bacteria are not present in Australian soils. Therefore, you have to add the bacteria or you end up with a significantly lesser tree than you could have had.

    Mother nature works slowly through evolution. If you want to bring a plant halfway across the world because it has properties which are desirable, then you have to take full account of its requirements. Or, alternately, you could wait a few billion years for the continents to perhaps join back up again and thereby 'let nature take its course.' And of course, if you were so keen about doing that, you would only grow native species and nothing else.

    That's physically impossible unless the tree has already been innoculated, and even then the effect would be very limited.
     
  10. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    [offtopic post deleted]
     
  11. Jez

    Jez Junior Member

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    [offtopic post deleted]
     
  12. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    [offtopic post deleted]
     
  13. DJ-Studd

    DJ-Studd Junior Member

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    Umm, lol?
     
  14. Jez

    Jez Junior Member

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    [offtopic post deleted]
     

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