when a climax species loses its niche,,,it is displaced, or worse.

Of course, I agree Mouse. Our personal actions and interactions are ALL we have. I also truly believe that any external non-peace is reflective of internal Non-peace.

But I'm a sucker for the mental exercise. I enjoy it. And Kimbo's conversations are exercising to say the least. I like to be challenged, because that is how I learn and grow. There is truth to each of two or more conflicting views. No one view is ever entirely wrong nor entirely right. Patterns in nature are very instructive. And I have found in the past, that people have said things to me that I am instantly dismissive of, aggressively dismissive of even. And later upon reflection I have found profound truth about myself inside them. I trust that as I become more experienced I have less and less of these reactions. I haven't found a great or even a small negative internal reaction to anything you or Kimbo have said, I find great truths in both. So how is it that they appear to be conflicting views?

Or perhaps am I just displaying cognitive dissonance.

So now I feel like I've said enough on this one

Be excellent to each other and Rock On!

 

Firstly, hi all. Thanks for reading my first post on this forum.

I agree with some of your comments, Mouse, but not all. There seems to be a gap in your thinking surrounding everyone being nice to everyone else and we will eventually all get along. Maybe, but why?

Why do we need to be nice to everyone else? And how are we all going to get along when everyone we are being nice to are still stuck in their Bible, Quran or materialistic goals? I agree with what Kim is saying in regards to joining up with the already "converted". You cannot help those who do not help themselves. If they are living life believing going to church or worshipping some other God is more important than their health, eating organically and living sustainably, then that is there problem.

After all, madness is when you keep doing the same thing and expect different results. So why would you waste your time on trying to change the world when it needs to come from the individual to make a difference.

This brings me to my next point. The "group think" is not the way. You must think about yourself first, always. Once everyone does this, then we can live in harmony as it will be apparent that health ie, organic diet, no stress, etc is paramount in order for our species to survive.

Unfortunately we are at a stage now where the only thing (if anything) that will instill the "I come first" thoughts into people's heads is evolution. Let's just hope the marketing, greed and other factors of this sad economy don't drown out the small voice in the back of people's head that the current way is not the right way.

 

With all this said... ..by everyone.

Been All Around the World,
All around the world, same song
All, all around the world, same song....

 

an organism which has no control of the boundaries of its being is likely one which will not be around much longer. does this idea of integrity actually work for a culture? the hard edged cultures kimbo objects to (and i do agree with the idea that cultural groups need edges a bit more flexible, but there is still some policing going on internally) will perhaps persist for a while but in the face of over-all collapse or breakdown in the surrounding communities they are cut off and vulnerable. the more flexible edged communities will have the advantage of better information. in the competition for space the unflexible will eventually be overrun because the hard edge is seen as hostility just by being.

 

'After all, madness is when you keep doing the same thing and expect different results. So why would you waste your time on trying to change the world when it needs to come from the individual to make a difference.'

Which is exactly the point I was making.

 

i'm, going to have a try using some fiction, which i'm not very good at, so please bare with me.
_____________________________________

I'm in my shop, business has been steady. Suddenly someone covered from head to heel steps into the shop. "Get Out!" i shout, as my hand drops under the counter to the high calibre pistol i have mounted there. I have CCTV that ensures I can ID every customer, an unfortunate necessity if I am to conduct business in this place with the public.

I close early on Saturday, and head up to the local for brew before heading home. At the local I take an empty ash tray to a party of 3 blokes at a table, and take the used ash tray to my corner of the bar, where i pull out my papers and filters and commence breaking up butts to role my smoke

Next thing one of the blokes comes over and tells me, with a thick scots accent that i am offending him. My mind erroneously decides to meet irrelevancy with irrelevancy so i tell him i find him ugly. He signals to his mates and they manhandle me out the door.

I catch the bus to go home. A bloke gets on the bus, sits near by and asks me how i'm doing. I smile and say " c*nt, don't even ask." His appearance changes to hostile, he changes seat and gives me a nudge along the way.

Getting home i bundle up the family and we head off to the cricket. I find my favourite spot on the grass, and stretch out. Before too long I become aware of the hostile glances of the party nearby, apparently agitated with the fact that my feet are pointing in their direction.

That evening i'm with the kids down doing junior sports when a bloke i know approaches with a bloke i don't know. I'm introduced to the new chap and i extend the hand of friendship. The fellow steps back and just looks at my hand like i was offering him a fish. I keep the hand extended and after a very uncomfortable period the chap says " maybe i'll shake your hand when i know you" turns and walks off.

I say to my mate; " c*nt, what the hell was that shit?"

My mate says, "C*nts a Maori, sorry mate"

The next day, there's a call from the cops. My shop has had the windows smashed and there is a message in what looks to be arabic that i can not understand, but i do understand.

_________________________________________________

i am part of a culture under siege. I was born here in Australia, five generations removed from Pommy roots.

in 2013, i can not safely do business, i can not recycle and re-use, i can not speak my own language and i can not even offer the hand of friendship without culture clash.

the worst bit about it all - is that society will back the scot, back the pom, back the muslim, back the maori but it will not back the australian in australia.

this is why, i seek a better deal than multiculturalism provides.

i don't just seek it for myself;

i think the muslim should be able to shop , i think the scot should be able to be a typical scottish git, i think the pom should be able to be an intolerant pommy bastard and i think the maori should be able to be an ignorant ape. and i should be aloud to be a coarse aussie oaf with mother tongue that includes what i'm advised are profanities in other languages.

i look for answers to the dilemma of compromised cultures and i find this thing called Permaculture which claims to offer permanence of culture itself.

i find it models its designs on observable nature - and observable nature uses a 'place' for everything and everything in its 'place'.

i come here, to the international permaculture forum.....to discuss my findings,,,,and i get a serve for my political in-correctness. I also get double standards.

where i must respect every other persons cultural nuance whilst - not even being able to speak my own language to my own people without some crass intolerance about the words i use, which apparently have different meanings to different people.

C*nt, is an honest term of endearment amongst home grown Australian cultural demographic 'Bogan'

How is it that anyone's prejudice and erroneous understandings is able to effect such a cultural intolerance upon me and mine, apparently with the blessing of the group think?

The answer i believe is that multiculturalism is in no cultures best interest.

_____________________________________

i'm done.
k

 

Good read - quite clear. The multi-culturalist doesn't include Australians then..

 

kimbo, honestly I have no idea what you're on about. I can't relate to what you say at all and I have no references/experiences in my own life which tally with anything you fictitiously or otherwise describe.

 

Is the handshake thing a mouri taboo??
I like how the muslims get up early , ive actually incorperated it into my festival of life

 

This is from wikipedia:
A hongi is a traditional Māori greeting in New Zealand. It is done by pressing one's nose and forehead (at the same time) to another person at an encounter.
It is used at traditional meetings among Māori people and on major ceremonies and serves a similar purpose to a formal handshake in modern western culture, and indeed a hongi is often used in conjunction with one.
In the hongi, the ha (or breath of life), is exchanged and intermingled. The breath of life can also be interpreted as the sharing of both party's souls.
Through the exchange of this physical greeting, one is no longer considered manuhiri (visitor) but rather tangata whenua, one o
f the people of the land. For the remainder of one's stay one is obliged to share in all the duties and responsibilities of the home people. In earlier times, this may have meant bearing arms in times of war, or tending crops, such as kumara (sweet potato).
When Māori greet one another by pressing noses, the tradition of sharing the breath of life is considered to have come directly from the gods.

& I also found this, which I thought was beautiful

The Hongi: A Traditional Greeting Recaptured

Eyes closed, they touch nose-to-nose, forehead to forehead, the two embrace in a traditional greeting peculiar to the indigenous people of New Zealand, the Maori.
The salutation is known as the hongi typically thought of by non-Maori as rubbing or pressing noses, an intermingling, and exchange of breath, the “ha.”
But for me, a daughter of the Te Arawa tribe that settled in the thermal regions of the North Island, this description of the hongi is a denigration of an ancient and sacred tradition.
I recall as a young child strolling down the street clutching the hand of my grandfather when we chanced upon an old friend that he hadn't seen in a while.
Eyes smiling in recognition, the two men drew close arm extended as if to shake hands. The gesture only drew them closer and then forehead to forehead, nose touching nose, with a hand on each others' shoulder, they embraced, not a word exchanged. Yet within the silence, a volume of words was spoken.
The longer the two men held the position, the higher the esteem was shown. Then as their feelings deepened, tears of regret and sorrow would flow as they remember unshared moments stolen by time that has slipped them by.
The head is regarded by Maori as tapu, the most sacred part of the body and as the process deepens those that have since departed this world are remembered and grieved.
Their foreheads touching, the two become as one bonded by their ancestral ties and they enter a still deeper level. The connection to their ancestors reminds them of who they are, where they come from and whence they will return and in making this connection they honor each other, thereby honoring themselves.
Embodied within the sacredness of the hongi are their primal parents, Ranginui, the sky father and Papatuanuku, the earth mother, back to the supreme god known to Maori as Io Matua. But that is natural to the Maori bearing, needing no mention.
In bygone days, the name Io Matua was considered too sacred to be spoken. But today, we pay homage in songs and chants and recite genealogy for future generations.
However, it was not until each level of the hongi was felt and acknowledged, was the hongi considered finished and the two could talk freely.
The image of this meeting between the two men, the aroha (love) and respect that flowed, will be forever etched in my mind and up to this day, never have I seen nor witnessed anything so powerful and dignified.
Back then, the hongi was known to last from a few seconds up to several minutes, depending upon circumstances.
The Maori stems from a world steeped in spirituality, the word Maori itself meaning ordinary, according to H. W. Williams' Dictionary of Maori Language.
Elders believe the word was derived directly from the gods to make a distinction between being human and being divine.
It is also believed the hongi was god-given, but in today’s world many perspectives offered by non-Maori tend to undermine its sacred form.
Performed mostly on formal occasions at the marae—the ancestral home of the Maori where the spiritual well-being of the tribespeople is maintained—the hongi signals that formalities are over and guests and hosts are able to freely mingle at their own leisure.
On these occasions, at the powhiri welcoming ceremony, the hongi is imparted with a light touch of the nose, maybe once or twice and a handshake between men, and a peck on the cheek between women called the hariru. A long line of people file through to be properly welcomed with hongi, after which visitors are free to mingle freely no longer regarded as guests.
The hariru is usually followed by a hakari, a celebratory feast usually cooked in a hangi, best described as an earth oven.
However, living outside of the marae environment in a foreign country, nothing gives me more pleasure than seeing this centuries-old tradition carried into the new millennia by Maori people, young and old alike.
Especially at times when strolling down the street they chance to meet and greet with the traditional Maori hongi, a gift from the gods.
But unfortunately, as the years roll on, few Maori witness the spirit of the hongi the way that I had as a little girl. Though still kept alive by many, the full meaning of hongi is lost, compromised by Westernization, as more regard the greeting about as meaningful as a handshake, or a kiss on the cheek.

It came from here:
https://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/life/hongi-traditional-greeting-maori-19064.html

 

Maori People & Indigenous Australians would be good examples of peoples who were "displaced, or worse."
Perhaps something to be said for defending ones niche after all.

 

time to wheel out the big guns....

*marked thus is kimcomment.

Kenan Malik's essay 'Against Multiculturalism'

"This argument for pluralism is, as many have pointed out, logically flawed. If it is true that 'any standpoint we adopt is that of a particular form of life and the historic practices that constitute it', then this must apply to pluralism too. A pluralist, in other words, can never claim that plural society is better, since, according his own argument, 'There is no impartial or universal viewpoint from which the claims of all particular cultures can be rationally assessed'. Once you dispense with the idea of universal norms, then no argument can possess anything more than, at best, local validity."

* see that word local - you may interpret that as 'place' - 'place' is the scale upon which we discuss design - local - sub globe -

Criticism of multiculturalism

It was the high-profile historian Geoffrey Blainey who first achieved mainstream recognition for the anti-multiculturalist cause when he wrote that multiculturalism threatened to transform Australia into a "cluster of tribes".

Blainey remained a persistent critic of multiculturalism into the 1990s, denouncing multiculturalism as "morally, intellectually and economically ... a sham".

One Nation called for the abolition of multiculturalism alleging that it represented "a threat to the very basis of the Australian culture, identity and shared values", arguing that there was "no reason why migrant cultures should be maintained at the expense of our shared, national culture.

* the persistent theme is 'giving unity a chance ' by doing actual things that promote unity.

*"The maxim United we stand, Divided we fall" is not some fear motivated knee jerk,,,it is the very nature of social cohesion and it is what nature does when the dust settles, and a climax species secures its niche.

Cross-cultural comparisons reveal the wisdom of Australia's first prime minister Edmund Barton who believed that ethnic homogeneity must be the cornerstone of Australian nation-building.

More [!ethnically] homogeneous nations are better able to build public goods, are more democratic, less corrupt, have higher productivity and less inequality, are more trusting and care more for the disadvantaged, develop social and economic capital faster, have lower crime rates, are more resistant to external shocks, and are better global citizens, for example by giving more foreign aid. Moreover, they are less prone to civil war, the greatest source of violent death in the twentieth century.


*! this is the wrong word - ethnicity has a racial connotation....i maintain there is a wide difference between Culture and Ethnicity.....i base this on the assumption that any one from any race can theoretically practise any culture.

Germany

Criticisms of parallel societies established by immigrant communities increasingly came to the fore in the German public discourse during the 1990s, giving rise to the concept of the Leitkultur ("lead culture").
In October 2010, amid a nation-wide controversy about Thilo Sarrazin's bestselling book Deutschland schafft sich ab ("Germany is abolishing Itself"),

chancellor Angela Merkel of the conservative Christian Democratic Union judged attempts to build a multicultural society in Germany to have "failed, utterly failed".

She added: "The concept that we are now living side by side and are happy about it does not work".
She continued to say that immigrants should integrate and adopt Germany's culture and values.
This has added to a growing debate within Germany on the levels of immigration, its effect on the country and the degree to which Muslim immigrants have integrated into German society.

According to one poll around the time, one-third of Germans believed the country was "overrun by foreigners"

* remember what happened when the Germans last decided enough was enough?...

prevention is better than cure .

 

on the maori - i dated one once - so i have some pakia ( white flea ) understandings.

the hongi is a maori to maori mate thing - if any strange pakia were to introduce himself with the shared breath - he'd get the haka - then a spear.

i may have spelt pakia wrong ( Pebbles?)
but i have the meaning spot on.

 

Kimbo makes interesting points.

Perhaps multiculturalism is just a trick word to mask the fact it really means inclusion into Western Society. The result is the diminishing of cultures.

So here is what this conversation has methinking. The draw to the Great Western Society Culture is in how it learned to use the power of oil (it). Stands to reason once one understands how using oil displaces culture and allows trivial pursuits. Anyway, once hooked on the essence, the use of oil destroys the base rituals of these older cultures. So the people who are using that trickster word are actually practicing black magic against the many old cultures that developed on their local (oil-less) natural ecology.

Isn't a culture a natural means to blend into the ecology? Do it right, it lasts forever?

What we may well have here is a great merging of all cultures into one, and the smashing of diversity. Should this be true, nothing good will come of it.

 

Same with the native Americans of North, South & Central America.. in fact it still goes on, but I have hope against Kimbo's plight because the Lakota Sioux have widely taken to Permaculture, and to Earthships. If there was ever a tribe to fight against invading cultures it is them.

 

Last time I was at Pine Ridge, the place looked like a 3rd world country at war. Now they have this.

 

Knowing their were plenty of people on here better informed to comment on Native Americans I omitted them from my comment, so I'm glad you posted this. Their plight is as horrifying as that of our own Indigenous people. There are no words to describe the carnage, the trauma, the decimation, the intergenerational damage.
I didn't know about the Lakota adopting permaculture. That's awesome news

 

I'm trying to get some other tribes to look at Permaculture, including the local Coquille tribe. However, and this kills me.... ..each time I was invited the meth head forgot to pick me up. I can only imagine what the elders were thinking.

 

Kimbo, your logic has really failed you there mate, and I didn't say all those things you imply I did. Pretty much everything you stated is belief. It might originally be based on observations of nature, but it's gone through a kind of anthropocentric interpretation selection process (misanthropic interpretation?) which leaves an incomplete, misleading and self-justifying picture. I find your general argument to be racist, but it's kind of amusing seeing you manipulating permaculture concepts as a justification esp given how you feel about permaculture. Except of course that racism has real world effects on people and the rest of nature, which aren't funny. I have respect for the paths you travel and it looks like there are many interesting, intelligent and useful things in what you are saying here, but alongside all of that there is also straight out racism so I am calling bullshit.

I like mouse's view at the individual level, and I also agree that there are serious issues around cultures in Australia and other places. I just don't believe that running a racist line will end well. That's how you got into this shit in the first place.

Saying that objections to your arguments are political correctness is just intellectual laziness. Lift your game mate.

The word for white NZers is Pakeha. Like most Maori words, it has multiple meanings. One of them is 'flea' (not white flea), but it's not the meaning that Maori generally use when talking about white NZers (anymore than I have heard them use the other meanings of the word and apply it to people). Mostly the flea thing gets used by racists here who are feeling threatened by Maori sovereignty and need a way to put them down (those bloody maari calling us white fleas). I'm sure some Maori do on occasion use the flea meaning now, as a joke, serious or otherwise. Maybe your girlfriend was trying to make a point that you missed.

Helen, Kimbo's story has nothing to do with Maori customs or hongi. That bit of Kimbo's story is just a racist slur. Maori shake hands just like everyone else. In Kimbo's story the man in question probably just thought Kimbo was being a fuckwit ;-)

 

Noooo! Surely not? Has to be some other explanation ...

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