What's so bad about Roundup?

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by insipidtoast, Sep 5, 2011.

  1. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    First, people here at PRI are here to help you.

    Second, you should of been more clear with the exact problem. Saying Tussock grass is a large family of grasses that are for prarie ecosystems, which, essentially is what a paddock is and you are fighting against mother nature. In short, you will always lose.

    No for the methods

    Peppering - Isn't that for insects to keep them from eating?

    Steam - The plant naturally protects itself when temps get too high, all you really did was annoy it and water it.

    Fire, & Chipping, ploughing - Most likely spread it.

    Raising fertility, & flooding - again, it loved you for that.

    Mulching - The one and only way to get rid of it, but it sounds like you are looking for a quick fix, and in Permaculture there aren't quick fixes, we look down the road not just for our immediate family, but how it will effect generations down the road.


    I honestly have a exceedingly hard time believing that proper sheet / lasagna mulching won't work when it does for blackberry in the Pacific Northwest. So I read up on this problem. First, as I said, calling it a Tussock grass is half the problem, to quote....



    Well, as I said, just pointing it out.



    Ahh, I am seeing the light already, is anyone else? ;)




    2 words for you....


    cover crops:y:

    This information is more then enough to find an ecological solution. Round Up is never the appropriate answer.




    The above information was read at
    https://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/agriculture/pests-weeds/weeds/profiles/serrated-tussock
     
  2. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    So back in the bad ol days before we invented round up, how come we weren't all knee deep in oxalis and tussock grass, and starving because there were no crops that could compete with 'weeds'?
     
  3. palerider

    palerider Junior Member

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    I'm still trying to work out how people can use poison, and call it Permaculture, it's an oxymoron.
    This is a permaculture forum, Stupid me thought it was about permaculture.
    I 'spose it takes time to have a paradigm shift in ya head. It certainly took me a while.
     
  4. rosco

    rosco Junior Member

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    Ragwort.

    Another truly horrible invasive stock killing weed. Seed remains viable for yonks. Was turning into the big new worst thing in some parts of Victoria and Tasmania untill some well orchestrated community action locked horns with it. They've gained a goodly measure of control over it now. Seen the results myself.

    They beat this poisonous weed principally by using a synthetised poison. Tordon. This herbicide, as an ingested poison, coincidentally mimics the poisonous effects of ragwort. It destroys the liver. Proper handling blah blah and you are safe as houses, but using it was the only viable option given the scale of the infestation.

    You way up the pros and cons and act accordingly. It's what sensible humans do.
     
  5. palerider

    palerider Junior Member

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    Still trying to rubbish Permaculture as some "alternative hippy pastime"
    Sensible humans gave us DDT, Glyphosate and 245d.
    Only my opinion , of course.
    If they're so safe, we should market them as cocktails.I can't think why no-one hasn't thought of it.
     
  6. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    Most animals then have more sense then us. They don't go around poisoning their food, water, or the place they live.
     
  7. palerider

    palerider Junior Member

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    To answer the OP on this, I found this among thousands of articles.

    Roundup: Label - Keep out of reach of children, harmful if swallowed, avoid contact with eyes or prolonged contact with skin. Remove clothing if contaminated. Spray solutions of this product should be mixed, stored and applied only in stainless steel, aluminum, fiberglass, plastic and plastic-lined steel containers. This product or spray solutions of this product react with such containers and tanks to produce hydrogen gas that may form a highly combustible gas mixture. This gas mixture could flash or explode, causing serious personal injury, if ignited by open flame, spark, welder’s torch, lighted cigarette or other ignition source. Avoid direct applications to any body of water. Do not contaminate water by disposal of waste or cleaning of equipment. Avoid contamination of seed, feed, and foodstuffs. Soak up a small amounts of spill with absorbent clay. Do not reuse container for any other purpose.
    (Roundup - Label, farmcentral.com - June 2001)

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Monsano’s advertising campaigns have convinced many people that Roundup is safe, but the facts just don’t support this. Independent scientific studies have shown that Roundup is toxic to earthworms, beneficial insects, birds and mammals, plus it destroys the vegetation on which they depend for food and shelter. Although Monsanto claims that Roundup breaks down into harmless substances, it has been found to be extremely persistent, with residue absorbed by subsequent crops over a year after application. Roundup shows adverse effects in all standard categories of toxicological testing, including medium-term toxicity, long-term toxicity, genetic damage, effects on reproduction, and carcinogenicity.

    Studies have shown that Roundup’s active ingredient, glyphosate, made bean plants more susceptible to disease, and reduces the growth of beneficial soil-dwelling mycorrhizal fungi. In rabbits exposed to glyphosate, sperm production was diminished by 50%, and caused genetic damage in the livers and kidneys of mice exposed to the herbicide. Monsano does not have to reveal the precise composition of Roundup.
    (“Common Weed Killer (Roundup) Shows Evidence of Environmental and Health Problems,” Organic Gardening, July 2000 - in www.chem-tox.com - 2002)

    Hope this answers a few concerns..
     
  8. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

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    What is being missed here and with the serrated tussock is 'Why is it here and causing such a problem in the first place'? I would hazard a guess and say that it is poor and inappropriate farming practices and land uses. Those species are not invading out of pure bloodymindedness, they are doing something. Are either of them a dominant species in a stable monoculture in their native range? Are they pinnacle species' that signify a mature and stable ecosystem? Or are they transitory/pioneers, do they only exist on particular soils? For example with a certain deficiency? You can see what I am getting at? Poisoning is just lazy and greedy.

    I reckon you could out compete them with other species, such as trees

    I guess this is what I see as distinguishing permaculture from destructive agriculture; rather than fighting nature it works with it. I just can't see how using destructive herbicides to kill could fit in with the Earth Care ethic.
     
  9. rosco

    rosco Junior Member

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    Graham - It's here and it's a blight on the landscape.

    I'm no expert and too lazy to google any answers for you, but since it's here and has been accepted to be deleterious to the agricultural practice in question and the scale of the infestation is so great as to make all other control methods meaningless, what do you realistically think should happen?

    I'm no fan of herbicides, rather not use them....nobody wants to, but they do have a place.

    Nature is not a benign spirit with harmony on it's mind. It's unthinking, random and very strange.

    I'm leaving this thread now. Bye Everyone.

    :)
     
  10. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    "but since it's here and has been accepted to be deleterious to the agricultural practice in question and the scale of the infestation is so great as to make all other control methods meaningless, what do you realistically think should happen?"

    Change the agricultural practice (which is what Grahame said). Or if you can't farm in an even half way sustainable manner, then admit that you are screwing the land for what you can get and then you can justify your Tordon use based on that. Just don't do it here. This is a permaculture forum. If you don't want to talk about things in a permaculture context, or learn permaculture solutions, there is no point in being here.
     
  11. mischief

    mischief Senior Member

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    On Ragwort,
    I was talking to an old timer some time back and they said they always kept afew old ewes on their property specifically because they went straight for the ragwort but werent adversely affected by it.
    My grandfather used to walk the farm and when he saw it he stepped in the middle of it to squash/bruise it and then sprinkled the middle liberally with salt.

    I always thought that tussock grows on wet acidic soil so perhaps its a drainage problem.
     
  12. palerider

    palerider Junior Member

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    It's basically what graham is saying. Why is it a blight.? Every so called weed has a means of control, if it didn't, one weed would control the world's arable land.
    There has to be something to control it.
    Throwing one's hands in the air and saying some things are too hard to control, so poison them, is just missing the point of Permaculture.
    Here's a link put out by Dow Chemicals on Tordon. not a comfy read.

    https://www.ivmexperts.ca/pdfs/Tordon_101_MSDS_English.pdf
     
  13. S.O.P

    S.O.P Moderator

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    MSDS's are always frightening. We carry folders of them at all times. According to them, you are going to die several times a day.

    I probably am, but slowly.
     
  14. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    https://www.ragwortfacts.com/ragwort-control-ecology.html

    That's in the UK but could be adapted to Australia. It suggests that the overgrazing (typical of conventional farming) is the problem. Talking to the regenag/Holistic Management people (who advocate long pasture) might yield strategies.
     
  15. rosco

    rosco Junior Member

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    Final post here. Absolutely no point being here at all so I will vomit off into the vastness, but before I go....ragwort is native to the UK and a fair bit of biodiversity swings around it. It's part and parcel of life in the UK. It's still not popular there amongst the farming fraternity (of all shades), but here it is regarded as hugely offensive (doubles in size/spreads more profusely and kills your favourite horse).

    The relevant point about Tordon is it lingers like a bad lingering thing (half life of a year), but when handled correctly is considered safe.

    Been a bit educational here, but I find all the humourless idealogues tedious company.
     
  16. annette

    annette Junior Member

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    Good debate. Everyone has their own opinions. We all have much to learn from each other. I have singapore daisy everywhere on my property. Everyone says poison it, you'lll never get rid of it. So i put down so much cardboard nothing would survive and left the daisy to line some paths to stop erosion. Fence off animals. Take it slow. It's still a work in progress.

    Working in the environmental field i cannot help but see the effects of chemicals on everything. Flora and fauna, water quality, health and the list goes on. When all aspects of life are looked at from a holistic perspective we may be better off.

    Good luck with your endeavours Rosco.

    cheers
    Annette
     
  17. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    You're still missing the point rosco. Massively. The reason that ragwort is a problem in the UK, where it is native, is because of how the land is being managed.

    "The relevant point about Tordon is it lingers like a bad lingering thing (half life of a year), but when handled correctly is considered safe."

    But not by permaculturists (and your statement is actually nonsensical). Leaving aside issues of toxicity, the big problem with tordoning ragwort is that it perpetuates a kind of farming that is incredibly damaging to the land and keeps farmers in that vicious cycle of increasingly degraded land and invasive weeds.


    I don't think I'm the only one who won't miss your nasty snide put downs if you do actually manage to leave.
     
  18. palerider

    palerider Junior Member

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    I can't believe that article was read, and presumably understood, and then the comment that it is considered safe when handled correctly. The manufacturers themselves say you need to destroy leather which can't be cleaned, you must wear gloves eyewear, mask, etc. It degrades permanently your corneas,liver and kidneys and if it gets on your skin you must scrub for twenty minutes under running water using detergent.
    It sounds so good, I might go buy some. Sheesh.
    It's called an ecosystem for a reason, because everything is in the system. It's a system.
    Now hopefully, I can get back to learning about Permaculture, and stop trading blows with a recalcitrant curmudgeon. This attitude of us and them, weeds are the enemy, comes from an era of agriculture which is daily becoming obviously unsustainable. If I get a cut on my thumb, I don't cut my hand off, I apply a treatment which discourages germs, and allows me to keep the hand. It ain't rocket science. I got my first cherry blossom today. There was a little tear on my cheek.
     
  19. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    ScienceDaily (Oct. 11, 2007) — Scientists propose developing an environmentally-friendly fungal spray that would specifically target Ragwort, infecting and killing the weed at a critical growth stage. This spray will contain a host-specific, plant pathogenic fungus as the active ingredient and will have no side-effects on non-target organisms and pose no threat to the environment. It would therefore provide a quick, safe and effective means for controlling Ragwort.

    Ragwort is a common British weed which thrives on wasteland, horse paddocks,road verges and railway land.
    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071010111934.htm

    From wiki
    The poet John Clare had a more positive opinion of the plant, as revealed in this poem of 1831:
    Ragwort thou humble flower with tattered leaves
    I love to see thee come & litter gold...
    Thy waste of shining blossoms richly shields
    The sun tanned sward in splendid hues that burn
    So bright & glaring that the very light
    Of the rich sunshine doth to paleness turn
    & seems but very shadows in thy sight.
    Josephine Kermode (1852–1937) wrote the following poem about the Cushag.
    "The Cushag"
    Now, the Cushag, we know,
    Must never grow,
    Where the farmer's work is done.
    But along the rills,
    In the heart of the hills,
    The Cushag may shine like the sun.
    Where the golden flowers,
    Have fairy powers,
    To gladden our hearts with their grace.
    And in Vannin Veg Veen,
    In the valleys green,
    The Cushags have still a place.
    (Vannin Veg Veen is Manx for dear little Isle of Man)
    Donald Macalastair of Druim-a-ghinnir on the Isle of Arran told a story of the fairies journeying to Ireland. The ragwort was their transport and every one of them picked a plant, sat astride and arrived in Ireland in an instant.[
     
  20. springtide

    springtide Junior Member

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    Hi all - i'm asking this again because this thread has a lot of good ideas in it - what should i have used on coastal morning glory covering 20-25% of my sandy block? - I don't like roundup (and forget the "avoid contact with skin" the concentrate can give you wicked chemical burns) "but" - and it's always the "but" - it took me about a year of physical removal before i started using roundup - then i could see where the tubers were when the new growth came through and about 18 months of digging them up. I didn't use it before and i don't anymore and i often think MA posts these topics to see how people react "but" was there a better way?
     

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