What's so bad about Roundup?

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by insipidtoast, Sep 5, 2011.

  1. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    The problems with using RoundUp are a drop in the bucket compared to the money your friend just donated to Monsanto to make them one of the most destructive forces in agriculture, which means that biodiversity in the world will be destroyed. They want to control all the seeds, all the plants, all the food, and they will do it by getting lazy people who just want to buy a bottle of something, spray it and go on their way. They are leaders in genetically modified seeds and patenting them, then suing farmers who grow food for the world, whose generations of seed development might -- might have cross-pollinated with theirs. It's called transgenic contamination. No one ever wins in these giant lawsuits, except Monsanto.

    Their directors and managers become heads of the Department of Agriculture in the US and other countries, which means politically they have control over the laws, which means they will get the patents on food and you and I won't be able to grow heirloom varieties or non-GMO food anymore. President Bush tried to sign a bill saying genetically modified food and plants were organic, (because his pals from Monsanto in the Dept. of Agric. advised him to do so), until it got shot down by the other politically active group that controls organic certification.

    Not all weeds are a bad thing. Your friend may not like weeds, but they may provide habitat and food for beneficial insects. What are the beneficial insects going to eat if their food source is gone? a few plants in someone's backyard is not enough to keep the beneficial insect population going. It may take 130 days for glyphosate to break down, in that time, and especially for the few days after it's sprayed, it kills insects, contaminates water, and nontarget plants.

    Studies have found that ALL food that is commercially grown by conventional methods contains some glyphosate. It only breaks down when it's in the soil. Once it's sprayed on food it stays glyphosate. We don't have a choice anymore about whether we ingest it if we buy from the grocery store, and most of us can't grow everything we need, especially dairy and meat. they say the levels are below the standard they've set,m but they say that about air pollution, car emissions, and nuclear power plants, too.

    The half life of glyphosate in pond water is 70-84 days. The ecosystem on a pond is fragile. My pond has herons, ducks, lots of water fowl coming in to eat the frogs and plants that grow on it. Deer, raccoons, foxes, bobcats, mountain lions, possums, etc., all rely on that water to drink. There are thousands of water bugs and birds that rely on the health of ponds to survive, spend safe nights and have their eggs in nests on the edges. You can sit by my pond and never get a mosquito bite, it is that well balanced. Glyphosate during the time it is active, could change the balance of food/plant health/animal health even at low levels.


    https://www.beyondpesticides.org/infoservices/pesticidefactsheets/toxic/glyphosate.htm

    "Glyphosate has been called "extremely persistent" by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, and half lives of over 100 days have been measured in field tests in Iowa and New York. Glyphosate has been found in streams following agricultural, urban, and forestry applications."

    https://www.mindfully.org/Pesticide/Roundup-Glyphosate-Factsheet-Cox.htm

    Has your friend every heard of thick mulch to suppress weeds?

    https://www.cdpr.ca.gov/docs/emon/pubs/fatememo/glyphos.pdf
     
  2. palerider

    palerider Junior Member

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    Thanks Sweetpea, I 'spose some people just don't get the basics. There is a great interview with Bill Mollison when he was in America recently.
    He is a bit of a curmudgeon, and has quite definite views about chemicals and alternative weed supression.
    If mulch is too hard for people to look at, there is also Agricultural Vinegar, a very strong weed killer which is obviously made of vinegar, and nothing else.
    Has to be applied on a sunny day to do the best work, but is a great safe alternative.
    Personally I like my weeds, they feed a host of other things, and are a home for a host more.
    If I don't need the space for something particular, I just leave them to be. I'm not overfond of Couch and other runner weeds, but there are simple ways to get rid of them,
    or at least to make my garden less attractive to them.
     
  3. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    I should take a picture of my weeds, which could choke a horse, several thousand horses, to prove that it's not the end of the world when there are weeds present. Hoeing them when they are in inch/2.5 cm is almost effortless, especially if you are spreading compost or mulch at the same time. I mow mine and make hundreds of feet of thickly mulched rows. I couldn't do it without them. They have deep tap roots that pull up lots of minerals and nutrients that my transplants get the benefit of.

    On another gardening forum I go to someone posted a picture of their small garden, bare soil and several lettuce, tomatoes and squash plants, and another person responded, "You have such a nice garden, very tidy, which is the way it should be!" And bare soil, to me, is just asking to kill soil bacteria and fungi, use more water, stress plants out by exposing compost and soil to hot sun, and undoing all the good that organic gardening provides. The pressure to keep it "very tidy" (bare) I don't think is even organic, and goes entirely against Permaculture principles. How do you feed the soil when you don't have working mulch on it all year 'round? It's a shame that peer pressure is behind how people grow food.

    You know, about the vinegar, it may or may not kill weeds (I haven't had luck with it) but it definitely kills soil bacteria and fungi, and I might use it around underground water pipes and septic lines, but not where I want plants to grow, especially if my soil is already on the acidic side :)
     
  4. TheDirtSurgeon

    TheDirtSurgeon Junior Member

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    Amen, sweetpea!

    My garden isn't going to win any prizes for organization. Those Better Homes & Gardens people probably wouldn't recognize it as a garden, really. It looks like an overgrown vacant lot, but if you look close, you can find the tomatoes, beans, chard, etc.

    Mr Mollison says tidiness indicates brain damage. :)
     
  5. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    TDS, does he really? ha, ha, ha....finally some vindication! I have a pin attached to my desk lamp that says, "I'm not messy....I'm creative!" And I'm stickin' to it!! :)
     
  6. palerider

    palerider Junior Member

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    I should have explained, I used the vinegar to get rid of a noxious weedd, of which there are many in Australia. I wouldn't use it near anything
    other than that.
    We have an open garden thingy every year, for the Local food group, to show people that you can grow veggies in a cold climate etc. Most people said nothing, but there were a few who were appalled at the amount of weeds I had. One person was so upset, she said.."but you're just gonna get heaps of crawly things on your food.!!" "Don't you own a lawn mower.?". I gave her a strawberry from the patch. That calmed her a bit.
     
  7. Curramore1

    Curramore1 Junior Member

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    Very moderate and informed response indeed. What are the qualifications to become a moderator here? Emotions or facts? I think I may leave.
     
  8. Curramore1

    Curramore1 Junior Member

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    Yay, You sarcastic food realist! You're coming across a little rabid but I see your flow. Internal parasites in livestock have evolved with the animal. Phthiris pubis don't live on any animals but humans and we probably didn't die from them , just were miserable. Plant populations over time will evolve, the shorter the generation interval, the faster.Glyphosate was realeased in Aus in the early 80's, nearly 30 years ago. Plants evolve. There would probably have been plants with resistant genes then, the continual application has probably caused genetic drift to a group with resistance to Glyphosate. If 1% of the maiden weed population was resistant and only they survived and reproduced, and if their generation interval were 6 months, then after 5 years some marked resistance symptoms would be evident. It's beauty at the time lay in the fact that it had a low LD50 toxicity, low residual effects to plants and that it was non selective, quick and reliable compared to the nasties of the day eg. paraquat. My only question is that are the generics the real Mc Coy?
     
  9. Curramore1

    Curramore1 Junior Member

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    In 1980 table salt had a lower LD 50 than glyphosate. Can't really blame the early users for embracing the new low toxicity wonder herbicide. We can't all have 50:50 hindsight.
     
  10. palerider

    palerider Junior Member

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    I can't see what this has to do with Permaculture.
    Did Permaculturists at some point say poisons were good or beneficial.?
    Sorry, am I just thick?
     
  11. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

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    Not as directly as that. But they did outline some fundamentals including... Earth Care and People Care.

    My position is that poisons contravene both of these.
     
  12. palerider

    palerider Junior Member

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    Cheers, Grahame. I thought there was a paradigm shift i was unaware of. Phew.
     
  13. TheDirtSurgeon

    TheDirtSurgeon Junior Member

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    I was beginning to wonder, though we could more accurately say that a couple of "forum members" spoke less than disfavorably about biocides.

    I'm pretty sure Paul Wheaton doesn't even allow talk of it (in a positive light) over at permies.com. It's a more varied crowd though, containing far more folks who haven't read a paragraph about what permaculture is but think it's cool because of a video clip they stumbled on at YouTube, so it's likely a wise decision.

    Failing that, I'm all for heaping metric tons of public scorn on the Monsanto customers/shills. There's just no excuse for it.

    I can say that, because if I am not the world's laziest gardener, I'm in the top one percent. Yet I grow far more veggies than my household can eat... and I've spent maybe 10 hours hand weeding. For the year. That includes my girlfriend's labor, and she's sl... not as fast as me. ;)

    So here's my new ad campaign idea --


    "Roundup! What's your excuse?"
     
  14. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Paul Wheaton deletes whole swathes of posts discussing weekiller (this thread for instance would have disappeared long ago). I can see his point. It just seems like a distraction, and what does it have to do with permaculture anyway?

    I think the original post asking for good information about the problems with roundup is valid, but maybe not the title as it sets up the discussion for a debate (and IMO there is no debate).
     
  15. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    I quite like poisons.
    Most plants produce them; sometimes we turn them into pesticides, fragrances, flavours and/or medicines.
    My problem is those chemicals made since 1944 that no longer break down; a bit like radioactivity from nuclear tests. (Which makes life difficult for people like forgers of pre 1944 art works, as all stuff on the plantet from 1945 onward have some degree of radioactivity). Man made chemicals also bio-accumulate in the food chain and cause sub acute illness,infertility, cancer and teratogeny. (Most mammals are near the top of the food chain). I am amused by TV adds that ask me to donate to find a cure for cancer when we know we are giving it to ourselves; some prevention might be a better strategy.(Although then we would have poorer doctors and chemical companies --now the most profitable in the world).

    I don't know or care if an anti-pesticide /weedicide position is part of the Permaculture philosophy. It is mine. Weedicdes are mild by comparison with what we tend to use in agriculture/horticulture /animal husbandry and state border control and all plants imported into Australia.

    Recently a research paper from Europe found 400 "foreign" ( AKA man made post 1944) chemicals in mothers milk. That was shocking enough, but even more shocking was the reason they ONLY found 400- they ran out of money to test for more. Contrary to popular belief Health and Environment Departments rarely have the time or money to randomly check for the residual chemicals in food. (Perhaps they feel it would be better if we didn't know anyway). We have no idea how all these chemicals may interact. (We are also using man made, non biodegradable stuff in plastics, houses and manufacturing).
    Recently there has been a flury of hysterical reports(mostly baseless) about herb/drug interactions, yet no one looks at drug /environmental pollutant interactions. I guess humans are lucky we have efficient livers yet i fear future super heroes like Dr. Who will need, not two hearts, but two livers to survive on Earth. We put up with all this environmental degradation as we believe the benefits outweigh the risks. That may have been true 50 years ago but I don't think it is any more.

    So the short story is-- if the poison is biodegradable, has been on the plant/planet more than a million years;(or is an Exact analogue not a right or left handed version) I am happy to use it. If it doesn't, and we still continue to produce tonnes of it, it seems to me to be yet another example of man's hubris, arrogance, destructiveness, venality, greed, ignorance and stupidity.

    Remember chemical companies have billions to promote their products and use their finacial clout to skew public opinon, lie and cheat and put a good spin on their deadly crap. Remember thalidomide? It is still being sold in South America and DDT is not banned as many think; it is still being used by the UN in Africa ( eventually Australians/Yanks etc will get some too)
     
  16. palerider

    palerider Junior Member

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    The worrying thing for me is that Monsanto aren't necessarily the worst of them, There's Syngenta as well as a few more.
    I think Monsanto just take the brunt, not a bad thing. They have said publicly that the aim is to control the world's food production , for the good of humanity of course.
    Evil has a face. People wonder why I pay more for Raw Milk, and won't eat shop bought potatoes.
    I'm not paranoid, I just don't have a death wish.
     
  17. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    I've actually been trying to figure a legal way to call it treason or some other crime against humanity.
     
  18. wormwood scrubs

    wormwood scrubs Junior Member

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    poor humans, having to survive for thousands of years without round up - what did we ever do?
     
  19. annette

    annette Junior Member

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    A lot of the weeds are edible anyway so why kill them? A friend of mine has a Jack Russell that likes to drag himself along the grass. He has been getting little sores and redness on his belly. i asked a few questions about stuff around the house and found out roundup has been used around the garden. hhmmmmm. This person had no idea that roundup could cause problems. I wonder how many animals and indeed people end up with skin problems because they use these chemicals.
     
  20. palerider

    palerider Junior Member

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    I live in a farming community. There is a lot of rethink going on around herbicides and such.
    People are beginning to realise that the claims they make are often false, or near-sighted.
    This is from dyed in the wool farmers, who have used crap like this for generations.
    I'm lucky my place has never had chemicals on it.
     

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