Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by insipidtoast, Sep 5, 2011.
Does anyone have a scientific article that explains the negative effects of Roundup?
Not personally, but google Roundup Toxicity +Mother Earth news and follow the links. It's a time killer to do so on dialup.
It is opposed to nature.
If you flick back through threads in 'The Big Picture' there are quite a few discussions about Glyphosate and Roundup in there, and links to more details.
Also being a cynic, I suspect it will be difficult for you to find independent scientific info anyway, as there is so much sponsored 'science' out there these daze.
What isn't bad about it?
Easier question to answer.
Don't forget to look up Butcher Steve ;-)
I've used Glyphosate for 25 years and have found it to be a very handy tool. Remember though that nature abhors a vacuum and bare soil is only ever a short term situation. You annihilate one pox only to have it supplanted by another.
It's a total ripoff when bought in small quantities. Buy 20 ltrs and sell some to friends. It doesn't appear to go off. Mine still works 25 years later.
Check out Wikipedia for a run down on it's downsides.....everything has one.
I know SOME things about Glyphosate.
1. it bonds to clay particles in soil which then renders it neutralised.
2. If you don't have a lot of clay in your soil, it stays around and potent until it finds clay to neutralise it, so can run off into waterways and become quite a menace to pond life and water life in general.
3. It has been banned in 2 Scandinavian countries, because they don't have a lot of clay in their soils, and it has been found to disrupt fish populations in the areas where it was used, and not neutralised.
Remind me not to buy food from you.
Or... read the well-researched articles (complete with excellent references) previously linked-to in this very thread by our good friend, permasculpter.
Are you questioning the environmental effects of Glyphosate poison or of the ill effects of Roundup producer , the Monsanto company?
Still reckon the better refs and overview of the product are to be found on the wikipedia page. The links permasculptor supplied have an off putting hysterical note to them. The last one in particular.
...my take on it is that it's a handy labour saving tool that should not be used carelessly or with abandon. Also think Monsanto have a well deserved and substantiated reputation for horribleness, but then so does my sister.
Judging by your spelling of "labour" I'll take a guess that you don't live in the States. (Probably a good thing, but...)
You may not have experienced this where you live, but here in the American midwest, a rather interesting thing has happened. The weeds that Roundup is supposed to kill are very rapidly developing immunity to it. Pigweed, for instance, now laughs at Roundup and grows taller and faster than it ever did before.
This isn't a case of a "Roundup Ready" gene getting out into the native pigweed genome. There isn't a "Roundup Ready" crop that it could cross with. No, it's developed its own genetic resistance. All fine and dandy as far as I'm concerned, because pigweed is delicious, and makes more sense as a food crop here than corn... but that's beside the point.
The real question then becomes, what next? What stronger poison will we combat pigweed with? And how long til it develops resistance to that new poison? I read an article a while back about Dow Chemical working on a gene to make crops resistant to Agent Orange. I mean to say, holy shit! That's beyond the pale.
And that... that is why I take issue with anyone using glyphosate, for any reason, at any time. It's the wrong tactic, and one that's doomed to failure and escalation of toxicity. Look, I'm lazy too. I don't like to have to do hand work with weeds. But that's better than the alternative.
yeahnah I'm in Orstraya DirtSurgeon. Damn these regional spellings for undoing my anonymity!
...anyways your high moral ground probably comes with glorious views, but your argument(sp?) fails to persuade me that the best method of attacking oxalis in our garden is by years and years of soul destroying sifting. Not going to happen. Never. Better things to do, but we wanted that fuggin oxalis gone. After 3 years it's now gone. We thankyou Monsanto despite your devilish ways.
If glyphosphate is part and parcel of a broadacre monocultural farming practice, then clearly there are valid concerns over it's application, we see similar negative outcomes with the overuse of antibiotics, but we are talking about intermittent control on small, mixed acreage.
In this instance it's fuggin fantastic.
Kerosene works just as well or a blow torch, or solarisation or just eating it.
The original surfactant in Roundup killed countless millions of frogs. They have now changed the surfactant, they say, but refuse to say say what to.( a secret) However they do recommend you use RoundUp "Biactive" nears ponds, waterways, gutters etc. Councils and others SHOULD be using this. So maybe ordinary RU still has the original surfactant; Who knows?
While the adds say it breaks down quickly it may not and will interfere with soil microflora/fauna. A search on Google scholar "Glyphosate" will give you any number of scientific papers and some of the problems with it. Remember Monsanto to has billions of dollars to spend advertising and promoting it, although these days they are more interested in Glyphosate resistant crops-- where the real money is
Basically it saves time. If you are into gardening to save time, you should get another hobby.
So what's so bad about oxalis? Maybe THAT'S the real question here. Why does a plant annoy you so much that you need to use a toxic chemical? Why not just ignore it? Or plant over it? Or eat it as MA suggests.
When NASA first started sending up astronauts, they quickly discovered that ballpoint pens would not work in zero gravity. To combat the problem, NASA scientists spent a decade and $12 billion to develop a pen that writes in zero gravity, upside down, underwater, on almost any surface including glass and at temperatures ranging from below freezing to 300°C.
The Russians used a pencil.
If I remember right, Monsanto used to make the claim that Roundup was biodegradable. They were forced by more than one government (France being one) to remove the word "biodegradable" from their packaging due to it being demonstrably a false claim. Not that I would take that company's word for anything -- they are the people who gave us Agent Orange, after all.
As for controlling weeds, there is plenty of literature out there on how to do it without chemicals. A good start would be Weeds: Control Without Poisons by Charles Walters, from Acres USA.
A great story, but sadly an urban myth.
But the truth (?) is even more interesting
Separate names with a comma.