What is the chemical argument really about ?

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by milifestyle, May 3, 2009.

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What is the chemical argument really about ?

  1. I don't believe chemicals cause health (or environmental) problems ?

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  2. I don't care if they cause health (or environmental) problems !

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  3. We are a free country and i can use whatever is made available for me to use !

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  4. If these chemicals were bad i couldn't buy them from the supermarket.

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  5. I don't use chemicals (in the permaculture/horticulture environment)!

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  1. Dalzieldrin

    Dalzieldrin Junior Member

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    Re: What is the chemical argument really about ?

    phew! mystery solved :D

    agreed


    by analogy...i mentioned this earlier, but the significance might not have been picked up...diabetics owe their lives to a synthetic chemical produced from a genetically modified organism

    unless someone can present a cogent argument for why diabetics should just get out of the way and suffer their fates i fail to see why a similar kind of accomodation can't be made in striving for a 'natural' balance that doesn't preclude the best use of the knowledge humanity has acquired for itself
     
  2. Dalzieldrin

    Dalzieldrin Junior Member

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    Re: What is the chemical argument really about ?

    i followed that link but it's raises some questions. Again, it's about word usage and definition of terms.

    "is associated with "
    "was linked to "
    "caused a "

    the link has other examples like this, with no further references that might explain precisely what is going on.

    these phrases imply a particular thing - but i don't think they are in a position to do so. it is one thing to show that there is a correllation between A and B. It is quite another to show a causal link between A and B.

    as an example:

    On hot days sales of sunscreen go up. Similarly sales of icecream go up. By measuring both the amount of sunscreen and icecream being sold over time it is easy to show a correllation between sales of sunscreen and icecream. the relationship is clear and uneqivocal...when sunscreen sales go up, icecream sales go up and vice versa.

    this is quite different from saying that you have shown a causal link between icecream sales and sunscreen sales....who here would like to suggest that an increase in sales of sunscreen is the reason icecream sales increase? silly isn't it!...we know that the temperature is the causative agent for both things.


    the website that's been quoted, and so many like it, uses phrases that do not allow a person to know whether a correllation has been suggested or whether a causal link has been proved.

    i hope you can see that there is very very big difference between the two things. without any further information, that link is misleading.
     
  3. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    Re: What is the chemical argument really about ?

    That particular article may use phrases and words that require backing evidence. But as Albert Einstein said... "The important thing is not to stop questioning..."

    If one article brings a topic to our attention we investigate it further... Google has helped in that area greatly :)

    There is only so much that can be said in a thread like this or an Article like the one i linked to. The important thing is that enough is said to warrant further investigation.

    As consumers, we can't just sit and assume that what is said or labeled will still be fact tomorrow.

    More importantly we can't rely on science to get it right all the time. By default, science has to get it wrong before it can get it right. Research, trial and error etc.

    Now i'm not saying thats always a bad thing... mostly its not. But history has shown when science gets it wrong... its usually a big deal.

    I'm sure families of Mesothelioma sufferers past and present are wishing science got it right the first time.

    When it comes to chemicals, there is absolutely no scientific method to prove a chemical will not mix with another chemical in an environment. There is now way of knowing what that chemical would be or its effect on human health or the environment.
     
  4. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    Re: What is the chemical argument really about ?

    When a medication is prescribed for an individual that individual takes the medication to control the cause (or more usually symptom) of the diagnosed condition. In your example, Diabetes, For our daughter... Epilepsy.

    When a Pesticide is used on a crop or in a park or school or even our back yards, anyone who comes in contact with that chemical by eating the crop, playing in the park or school etc is "medicated" with that chemical. We didn't ask for it. It wasn't prescribed for us. We have no choice.

    Pesticides hang around for longer than some people realise. When a crop is picked or processed it is done so when a chemical is presumed to be at a "Safe level".

    As quoted in a previous reply in this thread...

    At the absolute very least...

    Fresh Food purchased needs a list of chemicals used in its growth cycle and the date they were applied clearly on the packaging.

    Community parks and frequented areas should have signs that state chemicals will be sprayed on [date] and that it is at the publics own risk that they enter the area.

    Parents should be given notice that chemicals are going to be sprayed in or around their childs school.

    Councils need to provide rate payers written notice before spraying occurs along footpaths, nature strips or in and around private property.

    At least this way, we have a choice.

    One of several areas I have not yet researched is the effect of pesticides on lowering our immunity and how that relates to aquiring disease as simple as the flu to aids and similar conditions.
     
  5. 9anda1f

    9anda1f Administrator Staff Member

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    Re: What is the chemical argument really about ?

    The analogy is good. My daughter has rheumatoid arthritis and takes some very nasty drugs to keep it in check. She lives a productive, relatively pain-free life due to those drugs and she is working with a naturopath to try to obtain the same results without the "chemicals". Without the drugs she would be crippled by now and taking pain meds. However, the drugs will most likely significantly shorten her life. When she was diagnosed and prescribed, we investigated all the options we could find and had some long talks about the ramifications of choices. Her choice at that time was to take the chemicals to try to slow the progression of the disease. However, she continues to learn more and modify her choices as her knowledge grows.

    My ex-wife had cancer. She underwent multiple chemo and radiation treatments after surgery and has been cancer-free for almost five years. She learned a lot and would not submit to that again, but with the sum-total of her knowledge at that time, the treatment she chose appeared to be the best option.

    What's to say that the arthritis or cancer weren't originally caused by "chemicals" encountered in a lifetime? Does that mean that using "chemicals" to treat these diseases is not an option? Given the world situation we are all faced with in our short lifetimes, we know that we have all been exposed to chemical contamination of our food, water, air. Our intent is to ultimately eliminate the use of such substances in the environment, but we've a long road ahead to accomplish that. In the meantime we apply the principles of Permaculture to fashion our intent, then strive to design and implement life-systems that are chemical-free, using patterns we've observed in nature.

    The original poll questions are very absolute: "I believe (don't believe) in the use of chemicals because ..." I will submit that the real question has many more shades of grey than what was posted. I have a core perspective that says "never say never" as I've learned that one cannot predict the path of life ahead. I will say that I will strive to forego the use of artificial chemicals in my quest to establish a Permaculture aligned "farm", but I cannot say with absolute certainty that a situation might arise where a choice to selectively use "chemicals" could occur.

    I think the important idea here is that of "strive" or to do one's best to avoid chemical use. We each must evaluate the circumstances, obtain knowledge, then make an informed choice for all of life's situations in which we find ourselves. The question is really one of intent. My underlying intent is to operate naturally and I will use that intent as direction until I encounter circumstances that force me to reconsider.

    Hope this makes sense.
     
  6. 9anda1f

    9anda1f Administrator Staff Member

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    Re: What is the chemical argument really about ?

    @ trimnut2

    Thank you for your insight. I am now actively seeking an appropriate tractor with flail mower (brush hog) to do as you suggest. :D

    Bill with the weeds
     
  7. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    Re: What is the chemical argument really about ?

    Yep. That would be good.

    If only users of the chemicals would tell us what has been used, where and ON what. So we know what and where to avoid.

    Having products marked Organic is good. But does that mean a product that is not marked as organic..., isn't ?

    I know what you mean about your daughter... My Arthritis is killing me at the moment. I've cut my workload in half and still struggeling. Glucosamine, Omea-3, Vitamin B... Work goes down... costs go up :(
     
  8. trimnut2

    trimnut2 Junior Member

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    Re: What is the chemical argument really about ?

    milifestyle and 9anda1f have either of you looked into water fasting to cure/control both Arthur-Rightuses?

    Search here: https://www.curezone.com/forums/f.asp?f=335 If you want more info/help I may be able to assist. However forum participants have far more information/experience than I.
     
  9. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    Re: What is the chemical argument really about ?

    Thanks Trim,

    I haven't tried that for Arthritis, but i lost a lot of weight about 3 years ago with something similar. I went from 107kg to 85kg in about 4 months. I've never been over 87kg since.
     
  10. Dalzieldrin

    Dalzieldrin Junior Member

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    Re: What is the chemical argument really about ?


    may??? oh what a magnanimous concession!

    He also said, "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe"


    where is the investigation?

    where is your commentary on that link explaining in vivid detail how the information posted on that site prompted you to undertake further investigation - a commentary that explains in vivid detail to the less well informed what the strengths and weaknesses of the 'article' are?

    Where are the results of your investigation that show us whether the 'links' being insinuated in the 'article' are merely correlations (that, i grant you, are worthy of more research) or causal links, proved or otherwise?



    If by "help" you mean it has resulted in people thinking that because something is posted on the internet it must be true and that posting random links to this kind of dross constitues 'investigation', then yes, it has been very very very very very very very very helpful



    no, actually there is quite a lot that can be said about it - such as, it's little better than spam. but that probably wasn't the point you were making - i agree that you can't draw any useful conclusions from it.

    i can even agree that if internet bilge has any use, it is to prompt further investigation. well, since you posted the link and since presumably you read it (did you actually read it??) and since presumably you were prompted to undertake "further investigation" I ask you again (this would be now the third time I have asked for this type of substantiation), where is your further investigation?

    are the "links" being alluded to in this 'article' correllations or are they causal links?

    if you don't know, just say so




    until you produce your "further investigation" let it be known that your own actions here show this to be false

    you (and i grant you, you're not alone) post links to internet 'articles' in such a way as to imply that you accept at face value what is written in these 'articles' - you don't produce any follow up commentary explaining the significance of a link, or weaknesses or arguments presented, or the evidence (or lack thereof, as is often the case) presented in support of arguments - the link, one is left to assume, speaks for itself (oh, if only it were true!)

    here's the process:

    i) chemicals are baaaaaaad, m'kay?
    ii) here is a webpage that says chemicals are baaaaad
    iii) see, chemicals are baaaaad


    two extremely bold statements

    substantiate them both

    or withdraw them both
     
  11. Dalzieldrin

    Dalzieldrin Junior Member

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    Re: What is the chemical argument really about ?

    to add another layer of nuance,
    i) one might say that chemotherapies are exactly the kind of chemical poison that's prompted this thread...ie. they come into existance for the sole purpose of killing, in this case the killing of fast-growing tissue, ie. a tumour. as an aside, an early chemotherapy substance is now used instead as a way of detecting DNA...eg. when police take a tissue/fluid sample from a crime scene that might contain DNA, they will first 'amplify' the DNA so there's enough to work with, then dope it with that chemo substance so that under UV light, the crimescene DNA lights up. maybe it's just me, but it's a kind of neat symmetry that such a foul death-agent is employed to solve murders!
    ii) this exchange is occurring by way of internet-connected computers. what chemical pollution and environmental contamination is produced worldwide to facilitate this exchange and so many like it?

    iii) that would also include need to include the poisons emitted from vehicle exhausts - we can eliminate spray drift of pesticides, but if the vanishingly small amounts of pesticide one would be exposed to in that kind of situation matter, then surely so do exhaust gasses.

    by saying this, I'm not suggesting that you, or anyone else here is advocating that the car remain the cornerstone of society...rather, joining you in broadening out the perspective a bit


    hear, hear!
     
  12. Dalzieldrin

    Dalzieldrin Junior Member

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    Re: What is the chemical argument really about ?

    yes, it's quite clear you think there's a distinction between the two things

    as for the rest of your misguided post, is it because you're a moderator that you don't have to concern yourself with playing the ball?
     
  13. openeyes

    openeyes Junior Member

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    Re: What is the chemical argument really about ?

    This argument/thread is getting nauseating. I feel like I have been sprayed with chemicals.
     
  14. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    Re: What is the chemical argument really about ?

    Just trying to keep the debate out there mate :)
     
  15. Dalzieldrin

    Dalzieldrin Junior Member

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    Re: What is the chemical argument really about ?

    yep, one rule for you, another for the rest of us

    have fun
     
  16. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    Re: What is the chemical argument really about ?

    No, not the case at all. Just 2 differing points of view.
     
  17. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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  18. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    Re: What is the chemical argument really about ?

    MCPA is from the Phenoxy Chemical family which also includes...

    2,4-D
    2,4-DB
    dichlorprop
    fenoprop
    MCPA
    MCPB
    2,4,5-T

    Asthenozoospermia - is the medical term for reduced sperm motility.

    Necrospermia - A condition in which there are dead or immobile spermatozoa in the semen.

    Teratospermia - is a condition characterized by the presence of sperm with abnormal morphology.
     
  19. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    Re: What is the chemical argument really about ?

    Dalziedron,

    Agreed.

    Posts went too far... associated replies removed.

    Your report is left in tact for administrator perusal.

    Please check your email.
     
  20. Dalzieldrin

    Dalzieldrin Junior Member

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    Re: What is the chemical argument really about ?

    milifestyle ,

    thankyou for deleting the posts and for sending the email. I will reply to this later today, time permitting.

    I accept the account you gave in your email; since my report is being left for admin perusal, and lest it reflect poorly on you, let the record show that I fully accept that your motivations were genuine and not intended to be threatening.

    Okay, so we're putting the personal bickering behind us now, back to the debate... :D
     

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