What is the chemical argument really about ?

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by milifestyle, May 3, 2009.

?

What is the chemical argument really about ?

  1. I don't believe chemicals cause health (or environmental) problems ?

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. I don't care if they cause health (or environmental) problems !

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. We are a free country and i can use whatever is made available for me to use !

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. If these chemicals were bad i couldn't buy them from the supermarket.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. I don't use chemicals (in the permaculture/horticulture environment)!

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Dalzieldrin

    Dalzieldrin Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2009
    Messages:
    225
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: What is the chemical argument really about ?


    The ball is the only thing i'm playing - he pitches the ball up, i smack the ball down

    it's a shame you didn't feel moved to comment when it was implied that this country's public service was in the business of taking secret commissions from industry.

    it's a pity you weren't moved to remonstrate about playing the ball and not the player when it was implied that my contributions here are motivated by a sympathy towards, an advocacy of, that industry.

    where was your concern when it was implied that i was not worthy to post in a thread that has had nothing to do about permaculture because the posts i was making didn't appear to the poster to have anyting to do with permaculture? When I made the very same comment to that poster about playing the ball and not the player, where was your support?


    I agree with you that this is an important and sensitive issue and people feel strongly about it - I would count myself as one of those people. But the issue will forever be stuck in the mire of petty small-mindedness while the practice is tolerated of using this forum as a personal soap-box to air uninformed and unsubstantiated drivel.

    some consistency wouldn't go astray.


    "hard evidence" and "web references" ? nice oxymoron, that
     
  2. Dalzieldrin

    Dalzieldrin Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2009
    Messages:
    225
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: What is the chemical argument really about ?


    *sigh*

    I've made my position quite clear to anyone who isn't treating this like an open-mic night

    I point to the moon and all you do is stare at my finger




    Ok, happy to oblige. You're wrong. "patently absurd" was one phrase used.
     
  3. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,573
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: What is the chemical argument really about ?

    The only logic i've picked up from anything you've referred to about chemicals is that you don't believe in "synthetics"... I believe you referred to them as "flummeries".

    I am of the opinion that you are saying if we (human) mix one naturally occuring chemical with another naturally occuring chemical we simply have a new "man made" naturally occuring chemical :?

    Wrong again...

    Your pointing to the moon, i'm staring at the stars...
     
  4. Dalzieldrin

    Dalzieldrin Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2009
    Messages:
    225
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: What is the chemical argument really about ?

    oh, i can understand that you don't think my position is clear...no doubt you missed where i made that bit clear, too


    yes, you're looking at the stars.

    now, if the point of the exercise is to look at the moon then shouldn't you be...nah...you just keep looking at the stars, champ!
     
  5. Dalzieldrin

    Dalzieldrin Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2009
    Messages:
    225
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: What is the chemical argument really about ?

    i never said this. i do believe very very very strongly that you think i did say this


    yessssssssssssss...i did say that, but once again, you've missed the point






    i never said this. i do believe very very very strongly that you think i did say this
     
  6. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,573
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: What is the chemical argument really about ?

    lol...

    I bid you and this thread my fondest wishes, but i must move on...

    I believe enough has been discussed for people to assume an open opinion on BOTH sides of the argument.
     
  7. Dalzieldrin

    Dalzieldrin Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2009
    Messages:
    225
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: What is the chemical argument really about ?

    what a pity you won't stick aroud to answer your own question - "what is the chemical argument really about?"
     
  8. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,573
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: What is the chemical argument really about ?

    I did answer my own question, as did 19 other people at the time of writing this reply.

    The majority, it seems do not use chemicals in the permaculture (theres that word again, just in case you're still counting) or horticulture environment. So it would seem there is no argument...
     
  9. Dalzieldrin

    Dalzieldrin Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2009
    Messages:
    225
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: What is the chemical argument really about ?


    *cough*


    The only time you've given the question "What is the chemical argument really about ?" any serious treatment is when you made it the title of the thread

    the rest of your contributions in this thread have been variations on the the theme of 'chemicals are baaaaaad, m'kay?', interspersed with egrious misrepresentations of my position

    if you're enjoying your view of the small picture, so be it
     
  10. trimnut2

    trimnut2 Junior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2008
    Messages:
    66
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: What is the chemical argument really about ?

    QFT.

    To have allowed the sort of carry ons well highlighted by Dalzieldrin, to allow comments on outlooks that are so wrong and to have to put up with the endless nonsense supporting those views witness (Permaculture is a sub-culture of horticulture) does nothing to either enhance permaculture or the integrity of this site.

    Dalzieldrin I salute you: well done. I don't have your patience. Mods as Dalzieldrin says "some consistency (and integrity me) wouldn't go astray". Permaculture will not become mainstream till it learns and respects pluralism. A problem from Bill down in my experience.
     
  11. Dalzieldrin

    Dalzieldrin Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2009
    Messages:
    225
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: What is the chemical argument really about ?

    ta trimnut2, well said
     
  12. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2005
    Messages:
    1,536
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Re: What is the chemical argument really about ?

    The problems people use chemicals to address tend to be problems of inappropriate crops in inappropriate locations, laziness, lack of biological literacy, and attempts to impose a "universal" cropping regime inappropriate to the location where the "probems" which require chemicals occur.

    I don't use any chemicals (and to those who want to be clever and pay semantic games with what chemicals are, I am specifically talking about toxic agrochemicals, which can be carcinogenic or mutagenic, sourced from multinationals like Monsanto), and I moderate what I grow to avoid the perceived "need" to grow crops which require chemical use to work here.

    Chemical use is always the result of people with inadequate literacy trying to make something "work" that can only "work" if subsidized by the use of petrochemicals.

    There are so many issues related to the use of chemicals, including genetic and cultural erosion, that any discussion without the full cost of chemical use beingf addressed is mere word masturbation.

    This "debate" has cropped up here several times. Each time there is a flash in the pan knucklehead who thinks "chemicals" are safe, and then attacks the people who try to explain their concerns. The knucklheads are usually impressed with their own cleverness, in the process alienating everyone, acting smug and superior, and feeling the victim when they step on toes, and no-one wants to play with them because they think the antagonist who keeps the "debate" alive is an asshole. Then the asshole/troll/antagonist, um, the term is... dummy spits, and tends to move on.

    I read the first 5 pages, then saw where this is going. I won't be back in this thread.

    Don't feed trolls.

    >yawn
     
  13. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2008
    Messages:
    2,215
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Re: What is the chemical argument really about ?

    Thanks Christopher,

    So far I have avoided posting in here also, because it doesn't seem to have a productive tone or energy. But I enjoyed the earthiness of your words...

    To me I think it might be helpful to look at chemicals as sustainable vs unsustainable rather than in the more emotive guise of dangerous vs safe. Of course there are levels of safety and people are going to make their own choices on that. Personally, I don't use chemicals for a variety of reasons, one being because I just don't want to pay for them and I don't want to support huge multinationals. Also for the reasons you said. Generally, I don't bother listening to the 'science' these days because most of the research is funded by the chemical companies or other interest groups who have a specific agenda to fill. I like to just listen to nature and get her to do as much of the work for free as possible - At the moment she isn't telling me that I need to use chemicals. But that doesn't mean I have flatly ruled out the possibility of using some chemicals at some time...

    I won't be back to this thread either

    Peace
     
  14. Dalzieldrin

    Dalzieldrin Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2009
    Messages:
    225
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: What is the chemical argument really about ?

    i agree - a great start to thinking about the bigger picture


    always? i can't agree with that


    :lol: harsh, but perhaps not inaccurate!



    Try as I might I can't see how this is referring to milifestyle - so....are you calling me a 'knucklehead'?

    if that's the case I'd be grateful if you would point out precisely when and where i referred to toxic agrochemicals, which can be carcinogenic or mutagenic, sourced from multinationals like Monsanto as being safe?

    but then maybe you are referring to milifestyle? - he did have a dummy spit and said he was moving on

    either way, the board would be the better for you learning to play the ball and not the player


    coming in here to simply post that I (or milifestyle? I'm not really sure) am a knucklehead and then running away is gutless - it's a pity, you opened your post with the kind of material that could bring some depth to this thread


    again, who exactly are you referring to? i'm not here to troll







    there seems to be a perception that I'm here to troll and/or cause trouble

    i have been a visitor to this site for several years - i find most of what gets posted here to be extremely useful and very interesting and has, at the very least, allowed me to somewhat 'broaden my horizon'. But for all the good that is being done here there are the few who seem to think it fit to treat this place a soapbox to spout uninformed nonsense.

    i've put up with it for a long time, taking it as just 'par for the course' - but now i'm finding it is too much of a distraction from the quality information being exchanged around here. This is not a trivial point: when one strays into unfamiliar territory, how is one to distinguish good advice from the vitriol of an aggrieved zealot?

    my 'watershed' moment was seeing it implied that the reason certain companies are able to sell certain chemicals in Australia is that good, decent people, experts in their field, who conduct themselves with an exceptional level of personal and professional integrity, who do the jobs they do out of a sense of civic duty and the bettering of their community, were taking bribes from these companies.

    now, fair's fair...it could be said that i'm over-romanticising the accused. but even if how i describe them is only half true, what was said about them in this thread is still a gutless, ignorant and utterly disgusting accusation.

    I don't care for the tone and energy of that level of discourse, either.



    if i may say, this is an excellent contribution. i regret, not least for the manner in which you've stated your case, that you've decided to not make further contributions.
     
  15. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,573
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: What is the chemical argument really about ?

    "Manipulated Organic" and "Naturally Organic" are 2 completely different areas connected ONLY by the word "Carbon".

    In nature, erosion, animals, decaying matter etc, creates a topsoil for plants to grow. In many cases a plant will naturally adapt to its location because of varying changes in soil fertility, higher rates of one mineral over another etc. Animals eat the plants/grass that naturally occur in the area they reside. Animals also adapt as their natural diet changes... as with humans, animals are what they eat!

    Then comes the "expert" who decides to manipulate what naturally occurs and improve on something or create something new. All of a sudden "Death" is more important than life.

    Lets kill that weed, poison that vermon and icide that disease. The so called experts who invent these manipulated chemicals don't stop to think that on one hand they are removing one problem on the other hand they create an even bigger one.

    The Tasmanian Devil, as an example, has recently been placed on the endangered species list due to the facial tumor disease. Millions of dollars have been spent on cause and cure research. The disease is spreading mainly around the East (North East/South East) side of the state.

    :?: Is it possible that a chemical used to control "something" in that part of the state in previous decades could have caused this disease - will enough research be done to find out ?
     
  16. Dalzieldrin

    Dalzieldrin Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2009
    Messages:
    225
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: What is the chemical argument really about ?


    yes, it's possible

    it's also possible there's another explanation

    evil scientists who care only for death, destruction and holy dollar are working on finding out - I wonder if they're only doing this because GreenPeace has bribed them

    chemicals are bad because they cause the Tassie Devil Tumour - and i get accussed of being a troll? :lol:
     
  17. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,573
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: What is the chemical argument really about ?

    Like it or not, this does happen around the world. In Australia... i don't know. Thats why i posed the question.

    You mention and hold these "experts in their field" in high regard. Are you or did you used to be one ? And NO i'm not playing the player with that question. I'm a Horticulturalist (Perma-Horticulturalist to be technical :wink: ) I have no hesitation in highlighting my occupation. Do you want to share yours ?
     
  18. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,573
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: What is the chemical argument really about ?

    I pose a simple, serious question and you turn it into a joke... :bear:
     
  19. Dalzieldrin

    Dalzieldrin Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2009
    Messages:
    225
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: What is the chemical argument really about ?

    simple, yes.

    serious? okay...summarise the research that is currently being conducted on the TD Tumour: what are the key hypotheses being explored, and what evidence is being presented in support (or otherwise) of them?

    Using that summary as a basis, outline how this current research fails to address your hypothesis that the TDT is being caused by 'chemicals'. Summarise what gaps exists in the body of evidence being generated that allows you scope to speculate that this disease is caused by chemical pollution. Summarise what evidence exists that not only supports your hypothesis but also invalidates those key hypotheses (above) that you will have already summarised.

    Note - "summarise". Unless you want this to turn into a micturating contest about who can post the biggest block of turgid prose all you need to do is to put in your own words where you see the research is currently at. If you must, feel free to post weblinks to support your summary, but please don't simply post a link without the preceding summary.

    if you don't know what research is being conducted, fair enough - just say so.


    i turned this into a joke? no i didn't - i can just see the irony in being called a troll
     
  20. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,573
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: What is the chemical argument really about ?

    You must be a scientist :)


    https://www.tassiedevil.com.au/disease.html
     

Share This Page

-->