weedkillers ...Len

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by ~Tullymoor~, Oct 22, 2005.

  1. Ichsani

    Ichsani Junior Member

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    A matter of time, place, intent, volume and robustness of the biophysical system then? Gylphosate does break down if it is given the chance. My main objection was to the bandaid role it plays in conventional ag. and to the improper use. You know, kind of 'don't question the system just treat the symptoms' sort of stuff.....

    Plus i got a little riled at the scientific justifications given earlier, felt i had to step up :blackeye: , I dislike when people use narrow science to try to bamboozle people :spam2:

    It is promoted as a panacea (hypothetical cure to all ills and diseases) too.....good for shareholders no? :lol: But too much of any one thing is no good.

    This has been a very constructive debate 8)

    Cheers Ichsani
     
  2. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    (Ichsani, you always have such wonderful points. You put your finger on some of what really bothered me, the bamboozling justification, and thanks for pointing out the false science fluff...)

    We have invasive weeds here, the sort of seccesional junk that pops up in disturbed areas. We control them with machetes, like many farmers here (the better ones, at least in my opinion >sniff
     
  3. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    Hip Hip Hooooraaay yea chris well put that saved me 1/2 day typing what you just said......"ill have what hes having "

    I never have used chemicals,Since i became more aware in 1988.
    Im so strong against any of em, if i pushed it Id be wifeless and kidless,and probly friendless to :lol: :lol: 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) .my kids are 28 26 now,

    Im not allowed to do washing,or washing dishes or clean,so i dont/cant contro,l what that those use.

    I would probly only ever use any chemical for my life saving but i think ittl be too late :lol: :lol: ......

    I use no deodarent and only mild non perfumy soap for everthingelse,Cant be all the bad or me,still got all my hairs, and 99.9% of them are still orinal colour too. If fact the only chemicals i even touch are outside my residence,
    where i have no control........

    But you want more???

    Today on way home from guitar playing,I noticed the shire worker SPRAYING my ,well the shire bits just left to my house and called to ask what he was doing,to cut a short story shorter (ignorant dick).I decided to forget him and visit shire,there offices are 75metres behind my house.
    I protested the lack of responce to my question,and reiterated my desire to do the areas normally done by workers on front of my street. figuring if i did it at least it would looked after,and no sprays too boot.

    Fortunatly The shire guys arent that hot in our town,(thank god what with my chooks running up down street too).Have said i can probly do that and/but they have to double heck with relavant others,fire forman,shire councillers etc,nd will hear by mid november 17 or so.

    I know shire workers and other unskilled chemical users dont usually worry or care ,they just do job and go home sorta( not knocking them)
    So hopefully.. Today my house, tommorow the shire,.I care so much im gunna do it wether they like it or not..This place will be full of trees in 10 years ill sow millions of em,...Ive learnt that in larger scale tree growing when no money or resorces is to go back to square one...Nature is square One.natures been doing for a couple billion years??...Hows nature work,
    Humans cant get it right,and probly wont either, knowing a bit about humans,being one 8) 8) 8) 8) 8).

    It is a matter of choice you say I choose NO NEVER NO NEVER

    Im sick of right, wrong.why should i be the fall guy.....for what?

    all the time i got a mower or whipper snipper ill be fine....I could go on...Im busy now working on how to have no weeds at in my place im sicka them too

    Im afraid its too late in some places but not here, if i get my way,

    NO im not taking over the place or dictating to everyone what i want,this is what the town wants, but no ones seems to be doing, Landcare only helps farmers,never the townies.people who do somethings, probly waste 11 months a year on committes deciding what and how to spend any possible grant...Chasing your bum for 11 months then putting it in by calender dates, rather then,say by observation,weather etc. Its run to coincide with the main perpertrators who spend 11 months knocking their own down. being available after spraying sowing annual crops that start off the next cycle.. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

    Tezza....
     
  4. frosty

    frosty Junior Member

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    after my brief post I probably need to clarifty a bit more

    Roundup is nasty stuff

    I would never use it ( or any other herbicide /pesticide l ) NO MATTER WHAT

    BUT as far as toxicity goes Roundup is small fry there are many others MUCH worse eg Chlorpyrifos - which is sprayed under and arround the edges of most new concrete slabs ....... I would bet most of you have it under your house :cry: and dont be fooled it isnt safe under there ....... the toxic vapours do penetrate through the concrete into the house ...... plus when they spray it they spray a couple of feet arround the outside and have the hide to say this is to protect your valuable investment :lol: :lol: bad luck that it effects your more valuable investment your health IMHO no one with a sprayed house should grow food anywhere near it ! well unless you like little chlorpyrifos with your meals :roll:

    this is one thing that really bugs me about so many permies they say they are against chemicals but then they spray their houses !

    and wear perfumes !

    perfumes are about 97% toxic solvents ....... and they are in everything washing powder, personal care products, soap etc etc and when you wash all that sh*t down the drain you are polluting the groundwater the soil as well as polluting the air !

    solvent are neurotoxins and nearly as bad as Roundup :evil:

    I know the standard excuse is everyone uses all this stuff and they arent dropping down dead but what about all theses modern diseases like MS. Parkinsons and even Alzheimers - indendant scientists ( very rare breed ) have linked these any many more diseases to chemicals ........ and what about all the kids now with asthma plus people with migraines , sinus problems plus how opften do you feel like you have "a touch of flu" it is often chemical exposure but we are conditioned not to think that
    way :roll:

    if you want to "save the planet " it is as much about not using these chemicals as it is about saving the soil and growing your own food .......

    and there are alternative products

    frosty
     
  5. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    Right on, Chrsitopher, Tez and Frosty. I was playing Devil's advocate because I knew you guys had it in you. I was a little bit worried there for a while. Thought like I had opened the floodgates to a bunch of backsliding, backpackspraying roundupers!
    There are better ways than using herbicides for sure. Tezza said it; if you need to use herbicides, you are biting off more than you can chew. Of course, we all do that, but you just gotta regroup, focus on your priorities and bloody well get to work! Sharpen that machete! Unholster those pruners! Spread that cardboard!
    All you need is mulch! mulch! mulch is all you need! (with apologies to Lennon/McCartney
     
  6. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    Go Ricky Go Ricky...

    Sounds like your sat there listening to Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds there matey

    Tezza



    I blame Tully for this its her bloody question :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

    where are the people who start these posts then gone :oops: :roll: :?:
     
  7. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Bump for clarity on that other post.
     
  8. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    Weed killer

    Kerosene, painted onto weeds, with a paint brush, will kill them.

    Solarisation also works.
    You place plastic over the weeds in summer and in a few days the sun has cooked them.

    "No-Dig" gardening tecniques, for laying out a new garden, also work.
     
  9. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    Chemicals and CHEMICALS

    uote="Lolly"]OMG..
    I too dislike the use of chemicals, yet I dye my hair and use dishwashing detergent. [/quote]
    There are chemicals and then there are Chemicals.
    ones that don't break down, accumulate in the food chain, get stuck in our fat cells, destroy birds, phytoplankton and other wildlife.

    I am told round-up does not agree with frogs I don't know for sure.
    I agree about Monsanto being an amoral company. They are now telling us that GM is safe. Would you believe them?

    Pesticides that break down in the environment quickly include Neem, Quassia, Pyrethrum and many others, usually derived from herbs and plants people can grow and prepare in their own backyard..

    The two worst chemicals would be the organophosphates (malathion etc) developed by Hitler to kill the Jews
    and
    Chlorinated hydrocarbons (Alphabet soup ones DDT DDE Dieldrin, Chlordane etc)
    Don't let anyone tell you they are not used anymore, they are.

    They spread throughout the planet so we all get a dose.
    If you are interested in the new push to use DDT in Africa et al., check this site out
    https://forums.hypography.com/medical-sc ... be+used%3F
     
  10. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    Boiling water will kill weeds too

    I found this on line
    I don't know if it is relevant to the Round-up coversation
    https://www.caps.20m.com/OCFP.htm
     
  11. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    weeds solarisation and boiling water

    Agree with gardenlen boiling water
    After you have boiled your egges for breakfast ( so as to save as many GHGs as possible) pour the water on the "weeds"

    Jackie French talks about 'solarisation" for large areas. Covering the area in s summer with sheets of clear plastic for a few weeks. I think she reckons this kills not only the weed but a lot of weed seed too

    Of course all weeds help the planet and are only weeds because WE DECIDE they are in the wrong place.
     
  12. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Michaelangelica, Very good point. What we call "weeds" is just nature trying to rebalance a disturbance. I saw rt this thread had been reopened, and worried a Round Up is good debate was happening, hahahah!
     
  13. FREEMAN

    FREEMAN Junior Member

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    Interesting discussion,

    This is my dilemma. At the back of our property we have an acre that we are trying to reforest. It is a woodland area shaded by large Mountain Ash & Blackwoods. The whole area is infestated with English Ivy & Blackberry, the Ivy is my major concern.

    The Ivy was climbing the large trees - let go the Ivy eventually smothers the trees and they die. I have managed to free the trees from their deadly green shroud. I did this by chainsawing the Ivy stems at ground level & painting Roundup on the wounds. This worked fine. I do not like using chemicals but I saw no other way.

    The Ivy also covers the ground of this entire area smothering out the indigenous groundcover however, I draw the line at blanket spraying the ground. I've heard the chemical companies claims about these herbacides being safe, but frankly, I don't believe them.

    I currently slash this area to at least keep the Ivy down of course it keeps growing back.

    Has anyone got any suggestions on how I can control this pest?

    Regards,
     
  14. paradisi

    paradisi Junior Member

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    goats. fence off the trees you want to keep and set a herd of goats into the ivy - - - I know some people say ivy poisons goats, but do a google and you'll get equally as many goat breeders saying ivy is OK

    or check with a vet or farmer to see if pigs are OK
     
  15. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Freeman, I think the trick is to find out the character of the plant you want rid of eg some weeds do worse covered so light is excluded, whereas others will die if exposed to the light.

    Here's some of my favourite organic weed control resources from the Henry Doubleday organisation in the UK:

    https://www.gardenorganic.org.uk/pdfs/in ... e/Weed.pdf

    https://www.gardenorganic.org.uk/schools ... ulches.pdf

    https://www.gardenorganic.org.uk/todo_now/weed_watch.php

    https://www.gardenorganic.org.uk/factsheets/gs2.php

    https://www.gardenorganic.org.uk/todo_now/faqs.php?id=4

    There is also some good info on dealing with blackberry if you want it. Nothing on ivy though, but still it's useful to look at other weeds and how they are controlled to get ideas about the one you are dealing with.


    I also think that the permie idea of seeing the weeds as resource creates a mental change that makes solutions suddenly visible. I did this with a friend whose section is overgrown with blackberry and bindweed. Once we started thinking resource for compost making, the whole energy of the endeavour changed from huge insurmountable problem that would recur indefinitely unless lots of work was continually done, to a creative process supported by putting systems in place that reduced work and produced compost!

    Being willing to live with the weeds in a controlled way instead of wanting them completely gone helps sometimes too.
     
  16. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Location:
    inland Otago, NZ
    Climate:
    Inland maritime/hot/dry/frosty
    Just going back to the salt as weedkiller thing (and sorry I haven't read all the backlog so not sure if this was answered already:

    I understand the problems of salinity where salinity is caused by poor land management. But that is a different phenomenom than adding small amounts of salt isn't it? I'm not suggesting that salt be used as a weedkiller in gardens, but am curious if there is actual experience and evidence of what happens in a home garden situation.

    eg I'm also wondering if salt used in specific areas is less problematic eg my uncle used salt on his gravel drive for years. The drive was bordered by a fence, the house, and a lawn. Presumably the land under the drive was being affected by the salt, but would the surrounding areas be affected? (there were no visible effects).

    Likewise I've considered (but not done) salting the cracks in the slab concrete at my back door that have permanent dandelion crops in them. I pull them out periodically but it's a labour intensive job. Also the concrete is being damaged over time by the weeds. The concrete is likely to be there for a few more decades at least, would the salting be problematic for the garden as a whole? Or for the land under the concrete in the long term, if that land was ever needed for plants (a possibility given the way the world is going).
     
  17. cathy

    cathy Junior Member

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    I agree the "salt as weedkiller thing" is an interesting question. My thoughts always go to the concept of "salting the earth" that was practiced in the past. Either because they were conquerers who wanted to prevent their enemy ever being able to use the land again, or as a punishment against criminals or traitors. My recall is very vague, but my recollection is that this practice basically rendered the land incapable of supporting life virtually indefinitely. But I have no idea what quantity of salt would be required to achieve this. A quick net search turned up a summary of the concept, but no data on how much salt was involved.

    Nonetheless, the memory has left me reluctant to put salty water anywhere on my land. In particular I have wanted to grow and cure olives, but am yet to find a curing approach that does not seem to involve buying kilograms of salt and disposing of kilograms of briny waste water. So I would be very interested if people have some experience or knowledge of how salt/brine may or may not be used appropriately within a permaculture system.

    PS. I have no experience to offer with the weeds in concrete problem, but I wonder if you could attempt to solarise them. Not sure how feasible this is depending on if the slab is part of your house access (I'm sure walking on wet plastic after rain would be rather unsafe). But perhaps you could cover half (or a part) at a time. If that is not feasible, maybe you could "mulch" small sections using something like a plastic lid weighted down with a rock and left in place until the weeds give up.
     
  18. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Location:
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    Yes, this issue also reminds me of the maxim "the poison is in the dose".

    I'm also thinking of places that are naturally salty, and what grows there eg estauries, sand dunes, coastal areas etc, so am thinking the poison is also in the context.

    People say to never put seaweed straight on your garden, that you have to wash it first or the salt will damage the garden. But many people I know do use seaweed directly and have no problems.

    I used to mulch the concrete weeds with wood to block out the light. This was somewhat successful (permanently got rid of a false valerian that was growing from under a heavy concrete step and had lifted it two inches!). But it takes a long time and yes it's tricky for the bits that are walked on. Also the cracks are full of seed so as soon as you let the light in again they grow. The solarisation idea is very interesting - not sure if the heat would get deep enough to affect the seeds but worth an experiement, thanks.
     
  19. FREEMAN

    FREEMAN Junior Member

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    Thanks Paradisi & Pebble for your replies.

    I don't think I'll go down the animal path at present due to the amount of fencing required.

    Pebble, Ivy thrives in the shade, I won't cut down the large trees as I want to reforest the area concerned. So as I'm not prepared to blanket spray the area I guess my only option is to pull the stuff up by hand.

    So I have my work cut out for me for quite some time.

    Regards
     
  20. permasculptor

    permasculptor Junior Member

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    you can tether goats
     

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