Hey, if I can't venture an opinion without being accused of being a paid stooge of the evil chemical companies, I'm best bowing out of this discussion.
Not dummy-spitting. I just find it strange how most people in the world are happy and secure enough to accept that there are a diversity of opinions, yet others are only happy when surrounded by those who agree with them totally. Keeping an open mind is how you learn and become wiser. Looking for stooges and conspiricists hiding under beds, and insisting on only purist ideas on a forum, it's a sure way of stagnating. Hey, I'm an educated professional, and I see a lot of farms and a lot of soils. All I do is offer the occasional thing to think about. I'm not expecting or even desiring for all forum members to go and buy a litre of roundup next week. Just tossing in a few ideas that some may not have thought of. If you don't wish to buy roundup, I won't lose a wink of sleep. I'm only surprised that my ideas (ANYONE's ideas) cause such anger and cause people to ask me why I'm here. But if that's the effect, then I'm sure I can take someone's suggestion and find another forum.
Just to clarrify I never said you should go to another forumI just Dont beleive in anysprays Id rather pull out by hand (organicly) or slash/cut with my lawnmower or whipper snipper.My understanding of this board is that it caters for Permaculturists or those wishing to learn more about Permaculture and those ideals that may of arisin by being Permie minded....Ie. we talk about Permie things..... If i wanted to chat about cars id probly type in holden,ford etc. If i wanted Soccer news id connect to S.B.S or eqivelant web pages.. If i want News and gossip from roundup ill try monsantos web page do they have one....As organic,biodynamic,green minded non chemical using people on here, may only want to hear those subjects ....We may stay away from monsantos web page ... If i dont dig many holes in my garden i dont go looking into bunnings pages either.. for hovels spades etc I dont visit gunns either because they chop down forrests that have been growing since way way back before even adam was born plus a few. I dont see many gunns workers in here asking about my fodder,fruit trees,or my timber trees ,but thats ok.i dont upset easily.. If i was to visit your orgnic site wich looks very interesting i may add.and told you to stop suggesting you use roundup,sprayseed,or any other substance that i didnt like would that be fair.what would happen if i infringed on the rights of your workers and picketed your main entrance with signs saying dont use roundup , or your boss is a potentiol enviouromentlist polluter im sure youd drop hints that we vacate your front gate and your web pages.....pretty dam soon,maybe even get a few people in uniforms to show me the way home. Hey man if ya want an argument of livly banter amongst us all lets pick on someone/or something else..... Like who do you vote for?do u give road rage, are you gay?what do you think of gunns policy of forest destruction,are you a vegan.are you aussie. theres plenty to choose from really......you wont win all our minds in the roundup case anywhere let alone in a permie spot... Bit like eating pork in a hindu temple me thinks..Lets talk Organic you goot plenty knowledge i noticed, lets promote organics...I wonder if anyone in here likes to chat organics for a quite change... We/I dont mind a occasional argument/disscussion ...but lets have fresh subjects. 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) . Im sure that if a small insignifigant permie says stuff chemicals ..yeah the whole worlds stops and listens ...... But when supposed leaders and brainy clever highly bribed oops paid scientists say chemicals are harmless, lots actually beleive them.. No what is fair when the media help to promote this propagander,promoted by people who never even touch these chemicals let alone actually work,sweat. spraying them. In my book if i hear 2 parties disscussing a subject and it gets a bit hairy(hot) i step back and look to see if theres anybody who stands to benifit from there argument. after consideration verses multi billion dollors and a healthy person, whos doing it in a attemp to save /prolong there lives, Sorry Ill be rooting for the underdog.....I know several chemical sensitive people including myself in a minor way.my wifes deodarent upsets me,i dont divorce here i ask her to wear nothing (deodarent wise).if later she insist on weating well ill trade her in on to 20 yrs olds. :lol: :lol: :lol: now you sound intelegent enough to understand my way hopefully 8) not as long or technical as chris or joel but thats me.i dont have many brain cells left but do i knock them for having more left working ...no do i argue,no..... why are we fighting were on the same side.............. Tezza
Biofarm ag, You missed my point in asking if you were a paid stooge. I was J-O-K-I-N-G. D'ja see the emoticon (step up, emoticon, okay? now laugh..... :lol: , thanks.) See, that means joking! I have a sense of humour, and tho I strongly disagree with any justification for use of herbicides and find most arguments in favor of herbicides dissipate like a bad smell when faced with true cost economics, I am not trying to censor you. I have to argue against herbicide use almost every week. I try to warn farmers, and I get people who tell me what you are saying, despite a mountain of evidence to the contrary. When I saw it here, I had to challenge it. I agree to disagree. I will, however, disagree with any attempt to justify the use of herbicides, loudly, vocally, and with lots of information, which you are free to counter with your own reasoning. But I hate the empty justifications of herbicide use, especially on food security grounds because they do not ensure food security (for all the reasons I stated, and if I'm wrong, please, I am asking you, show me.). Its not stagnating to say that certain technologies are earth damaging, that Round Up enriches Monsanto while it pauperizes farmers. Everything I said is true, unless you can prove it wrong. I haven't asked why you are here, nor have I accused you of being a paid stooge. My attempts at humor may have fallen flat (I do that sometimes). However, you have not refuted what I have said, or commented on it. If you throw out arguments like that, expect to be challenged on it, and expect to back up your arguments. You are not backing what you said, and your statements have withered, rightly so, in the face of a battery of well reasoned arguments against herbicide use. You asked a question about people here drinking herbicides to commit suicide, and I answered. I also pointed out that there are alternatives to this technology that do not fit into the simplistic binary "herbicides or erosion" model you put forth. You feel attacked, but I was no attacking you, I was attacking your argument in favor of herbicides. If your argument has any strength, you should back it up and not get pouty when someone who has some perfectly valid reasons to disagree with your opinion does so. Can you refute anything I have said? If not, well, then, don't complain. If so, I would love to hear it! How much do they pay you, anyway? :lol: (jes' kiddin'....: :lol: :twisted: ) C
BTW, Tezza, good points! Biofarmag, we're still waaaa-a-a-a-aiting! Ya know, I hate to say this, but I don't think he's comin' back. And his website looks great. He obviously has a lot of information. But, whew, anyone think he works for Moinsanto (Jes' kiddin :twisted: !!!!)? Wonder if he gets stock options (Ha, Ha :lol: )! Ehlloooo, anyone out there? I would really like a refutation of ANYTHING I said! Ehlloooooo? C
No its Probly afternoon Tea break he probly having a cuppa. Cuppa roundup Wonder how many sugers he has or does he use organic milk or suger Tezza
EDITED BY PERMACULTURE BOARD TO STOP PICKING ON PEOPLE WITH UNPOPULAR VIEWS. WE WOULD LOVE TO SEE A REFUTATION OF CHRISTOPHERS EXCELLENT POINTS, HOWEVER, WE DOUBT THAT WE WILL EVER SEE ANY EXPLANATION OF BIOFARMAGS VIEWS ON HERBICIDES OR REFUTATION OF CHRISTOPHERS POINTS. WHILE WE SUSPECT THAT BIOFARMAG IS SKEERED TO SHARE THE ALLEGED LOGIC BEHIND HIS VERY DIFFICULT IF NOT IMPOSSIBLE TO COMPREHEND ARGUMENT IN FAVOR OF SIMPLISTIC AND DESTRUCTIVE AGRICULTURAL PRACTICES, WE DO NOT APPROVE OF THE MEAN SPIRITEDNESS CREEPING INTO CHRISTOPHERS POSTS. CHRISTOPHER NEEDS TO FOCUS MORE ON FARMING AND STOP PICKING ON BIOFARMAG AND HIS APPARENTLY RATIONLESS ARGUMENT IN FAVOR OF CHEMICALS. THE WORLD IS A BIG PLACE, AND THERE IS ROOM FOR EVERYONE, THO WE WISH THOSE THAT USE CHEMICALS WOULD ALL GO USE CHEMICALS SOMEWHERE VERY FAR FROM US. WE ASK THAT CHRISTOPHER CEASE AND DESIST FROM MOCK QUESTIONS ABOUT STOCK OPTIONS, WHETHER OR NOT BIOFARMAG GETS MEDICAL AND DENTAL FROM MONSANTO, AND IF MONSANTO PAYS HIM PER POST OR NOT. THESE JOKES ARE ONLY FUNNY TO 12 YEAR OLDS, AND HE SHOULD GROW UP, ALREADY! PERMACULTURE BOARD TO STOP PICKING ON PEOPLE WITH UNPOPULAR VIEWS.
dunno Its funny though he must just be a stickler for things my wife thinks im bad :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Maybe hes at monsantos web page getting more tea break supplies or in town bying up more shares..... Tezza
Sorry. I will stop. I was really looking foprward to hearing why agrochemicals are better than smart farming, and why we should limit ourselves to getting hit in the head with mallets and hammers. I can really be rude and immature. But I think I was right, and Biofarmag hasn't responded yet. I was hoping to goad him into at least supporting his position by attacking mine. Guess that isn't going to happen. No more mean spirited mocking, tho, from me. I'm a new man... C
Yeah come on children........ It's not nice to pick on the kid that has different ideas.... At least biofarmag has the right intentions, whether anyone elses views (think I got the right use of the word Tam) differ from what his, at least the intention is there... We may consider his views and/or methods to be misguided and not what we would do, but it's at least a small step in the right direction.... Besides, how can you ever convince someone to stop using roundup if you scare them off.. Says Joel who just got off the phone to his mum who tells him that she has been painting round up onto weeds out the back and pouring saline solution on a problem area of liverworts. :? :? :? I thought I taught her better than that, still lucky the old man is a salinity expert, he'll plant out some salt bushes if the area becomes a problem... Anyway, if you kids don't stop, I'll tell Tully..... (bloddy dobber.!)
cough clears throught......Hello this is mrs Tezza, i must appologise for my son for being such a loud mouthed abnoxious self that he is in here.. Ive tried getting him into counciling and even group therapy.all to no avail. .I had hoped the internet would cure him but it hasnt at all...His best freinds mother has phoned me say that hes not welcomed over at his freind christopher house anymore.and mrs Heretic and Mrs organomag has put a restraing order on him. Hes dilloushionable he thinks everyones out to get him.accusing people trying to poison the planet and kill the people in order to let some ET's take over the planet.And is convinced our worshippedness the Prime Minister of asia Sir Johnathon Howarde de plonker.is out to make us all food parcels for the anticipated arrival of the ET's. Im so deperate Im thinking of chaining him up to parliment house and hope they can swing his vote back to the"national interest party" hey mum what r u doing on the computer;;;mum
Thanks noting my good intentions, earthbound. I think you're in the minority in that opinion, though. Most seem to believe I'm part of the Great Conspiracy, and call my arguments "rationless". In my professional capacity I know I'm doing plenty of good out there, which I wouldn't achieve if I refused to deal with any chemical-users (or if I treated them as stupid). I make a difference on thousands and thousands of acres every year, and I'm happy with that. I can deal with disagreement, but I have better things to do than to deal with open hostility and childish put-downs by those who don't know the difference between glyphosate and grammoxone. I'll be deleting the forum from my bookmarks this afternoon. All the best to those who've been pleasant and have respected my dignity in the past.
I hadnt read this thread before because we "embrace our weeds " :wink: and I am very surprised to find a discussion on Roundup :cry: the problem with Roundup is the propaganda that it is harmless it certainly is NOT it is an organophosphate and as such closely related to sarin nerve gas one of its really nasty effects is that it is (like all other organophosphates ) a cholinesterase inhibitor ........ that means it stops messages getting fromthe brain to the nerves and then the muscles .... this is doubly dangerous because most chemicals do not have to be tested for neurotoxicity just instant mortality so while users of it or those exposed by spray drift may not drop dead they will very likely develop serious neurological problems years later - long after they have forgotten the Roundup exposure but that it not all there is growing evidence that Roundup causes cancer particularly Non hodgkins lympoma full article https://www.safe2use.com/pesticidenews/roundup.htm isnt it strange that th4 incidence of NHL is growing as is the use of Roundup :roll: I also have a paper somewhere on a study that links Roundup to breast cancer ( will try and find it and post it later ) so it isnt just frogs dying or suicides ....... the Roundup toll is well hidden and growing I am part of it ........ when we lived at Waroona I lost about 50% of the use of my hands due to cholinesterase inhibition caused by the neighbours spraying Roundup frosty
grammoxone yep biofarmag I reckon most of em would be thinking of the nasty stuff grammoxone better known as sprayseed. This is bad stuff and I wont allow it to be used on my block, unfortunatly most of my nieghbours use it, I wish they didn't, but hey what can I do! We do however use some roundup, Id prefer not to however we want to make a living off our land so use it as sparingly as possible. If there is ever a new product as effective and cheap as roundup and more environmentally and user friendly I can tell ya we'd be the first to use it. We are all just tryin to do the best we can.........so we use a little roundup, but in contrast we've planted over 400 native trees on our block, we use no pesticides,we've put up nesting boxes in our bigger trees to give the parrots somewhere to nest.........in short I think everyone really prefers to be organic and kind to the environment and if there was a safer product than roundup I'm sure most farmers would prefer to use it.
Biofarmag, I am sorry if I've offended you. I am opposed to that technology (which I think you know, now :lol: ), and was hoping to hear more about why it is good, other than regurgitated corporate stuff. I have looked at your site, and it looks very interesting. You obviously know a tonne of information about soil. When you opened up this debate, I had hoped you would provide more "meat" for your concept, especially considering how much "meat" there is at your web site. But you haven't. You have pointed out that I did not identify Gramaxone and Round Up as being different, and I know they are different, but to me, they are more alike than seperate. I lump them together under the heading Dangerous Technologies That Are Displacing Traditional Agriculture. The problems we as a species face are not truly addressed by this type of "solution", and you never answered any of my questions, or adressed any of my points. Side stepping any and all questions raised by yor post because of "open hostility and childish putdowns" (that was me, wasn't it? C'mon, tell the truth!) is evasive. If you have the courage of your convictions, stand by yor statement. At least answer the questions your post raised if you are incapable of contesting any of the other issues I adressed. And I am sorry for the "childish" put downs. I respected your dignity while I attacked your defense of chemical use. I tried to do it with enough humor that it would be apparent that I am not attacking you. It isn't personal, it's just that we see the effects of the whole Round Up mentality here in Belize on a daily basis, and if somethiing like that comes up, especially here, I have to counter those arguments with other arguments. The only reason I called it rationless is because you have not been able to provide a rational argument in favor of using chemicals yet, other than Monsantos line of reasoning, which I thnk is a weak argument, and largely besides the point because there ARE other options. At no point did I say that YOU were an idiot, that YOU were stupid, that YOU are a corporate sellout, that YOU own stock in Monsanto and this is a covert operation to promote Round Up. Even if I did think that, I would never say it (what's Moinsanto stock trading at now, anyway? :lol: :lol: ) Look, I'm an Irish American from New York City, and I grew up arguing! I can't help it. It's in my blood. My dad is like the best arguer that ever lived. He's an exparatrooper who still runs 2 miles every day, pumps iron, and at almost 70, he can argue like nobodies business. He can take an issue, argue it to the hilt, all night, without let up, and the next day over coffee he will argue against the same point with the same vigor and intensity. He is a human pit bull! I am more like a cuddly lap dog, m'self.... I grew up in a house where debate was a daily occurence, and where if you couldn't defend your argument, you didn't bow out of the arguiment because the other person had childish put downs (and if you knew my brothers, you'd know why) you bowed out because you couldn't back up your position, which I think is what your farewell speech is about. Grow a thicker skin! If you promote these technologies here, expect to be called on it, and defend your statements! I look forward to other postings from you on other subjects, unless the debate you sparked has truly chased you off. At which point I'm typing to the wind, aren't I? Best wishes, Christopher Oh, and Mrs Tezza, your son is ALWAYS welcome here at our house. He should really stop bullying people like biofarmag, tho, and that other guy. I'm just glad we're on the same side of most issues :lol: !
Well seeing as he has appologised to the other boy, i may let him come to your house over a weekend Mrs Tezza
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: You really are a nutter Tezza, me mate!!
Is that Complimentry? How is your course going do you /have you done much about the permaculture course with visions the correspondence courses? Tezza