Was Adam (from the old Testament) the first Permaculturist

Discussion in 'General chat' started by purecajn, Jan 20, 2011.

  1. purecajn

    purecajn Junior Member

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    also, even if he didn't learn how to properly grow, the fact that he and this family continued to grow foodstuffs tells me that he had to still learn how things grew and look for connections in nature in later times and isn't a permaculturist a person who looks for and applies growing techniques from nature in a manipulated assortment of plants for a specific outcome? even if Adam in this since is a neo-permi
     
  2. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    Oh dear, there's that evil word 'dominion' again...

    Seriously folks, as Holmgren himself has stated (my emphasis in bold, and comments in closed brackets):

    Permaculture attracts many people raised in a culture of scientific rationalism because its wholism does not depend on a spiritual dimension. For others, permaculture reinforces their spiritual beliefs [purecajn, and his Adam as proto-permie analogy, perhaps?], even if these are simply a basic animism that recognises the earth is alive and, in some unknowable way, conscious. For most people on the planet, the spiritual and rational still coexist in some fashion. Can we really imagine a sustainable world without spiritual life in some form?

    For myself, I am proud of my atheist upbringing, in which humanist values defined an ethical framework for a rational world; but I also accept that, through the project of permaculture, my life is by small increments being drawn toward some sort of spiritual awareness and perspective that is not yet clear. To deny this, based on the evidence, would be irrational [he does not elaborate what form this evidence may take - I must ask him some day]. However, for the present, my own interpretation rests firmly on rational and humanist foundations.


    Source: Holmgren (2002) Permaculture: Principles and Pathways beyond Sustainability. Hepburn: Holmgren Design Services, p. 3

    Room for all views in Mandala Town (and on the permaculture flower), I believe. Boring old world if we all interpreted it in the same way. Besides, I would not have anything to philosophise over during a glass of red or three with my Atheist, Buddhist, Taoist, Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Confucianist, Pagan, Rainbow Serpentine (apologies if I have forgotten anyone) friends, if we did.

    Cheerio, Markos (wanders off in search of another red mumbling to himself, "Please folks, if we are going to try and define permaculture, at least read the bloody book. David's, that is, not God's. And if it must be the latter, at least read it in the context of the former...")
     
  3. purecajn

    purecajn Junior Member

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    eco - you bring a warm smile to my face. cheer cheers
     
  4. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

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    For me personally, I am not in any way a religious person but I still consider my self a spiritual person. I guess you could say I am something of a Taoist, but once you name something it loses some of its character. I have come to a point in my philosophy where the existence/non-existence of God is irrelevant. The actions I need to take to fulfil myself as a human are the same either way. My God is my internal compass, my spirit is that intuition that guides me in my actions (as long as I am strong enough to listen). When I listen to it, my life fills with happiness, when I ignore it it is as though I am pushing against the universe, pushing against god.

    I think this is basically what the bible is about for me. It is basically what Holmgren's book is about for me too.

    Be the change you wish to see, but make sure you know who YOU is and what it is you really wish to see. Most people never answer these questions and so spend their lives flailing about wondering why they cannot get anywhere or get anything done. It is why the world never changes for them.

    My thoughts are that clarity is akin to freedom from 'sin'. Distractions for this inner being are the 'sins'. We suffer from these distractions and therefore cannot enter the 'Kingdom of God', which in my mind is an allegory of 'Peace within'

    Peace my friends
     
  5. Nain Dejardin

    Nain Dejardin Junior Member

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    Grahame - I really enjoyed that post.. very well put and it resonates in my beliefs as well.
     
  6. purecajn

    purecajn Junior Member

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  7. sun burn

    sun burn Junior Member

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    Cajn I haven't been arguing against the bible story. I have been arguing your interpretation and representation of it. if you had used some of these quotes earlier on, we might have avoided a lot of debate and got to the crux of the matter much sooner. Still i don't think any of this adds up to permaculture. Farming, "caring" for the land is not permaculture. It would be more permacultury if God had instructed Adam, "Don't till the soil. Pick the the ripe fruit from the tree or the floor of the forest and enjoy the abundance that surrounds you. Respect the harmony of nature's wild ways. Learn to live with and love the plants and the animals in their natural state. Take only what you need for your own sustenance and leave the rest in peace."


    With respect, i think this is very simplistic.

    I think spirituality means different things to different people. For some it means some impersonal supernatural guiding force. For others it means being kind to yourself and each other and living in a state of mindful awareness. For others its a catch-all for religion but not their doctrines. I find the word somewhat ambiguous and confusing. Its a bit like what is God. Its only when someone defines what God is to them that you can begin to have any sort of meaningful discussion about it and everything else that follows. The question What is God and is there a God are fundamental but we don't really need to get bogged down in it to find a good way to live and be in the world, though many people find having some sort of understanding of how God fits in helps them find that good way to be in the world. I certainly find that knowing how God does not fit in to my life helps me figure out the rest.

    For me, any meaningful talk of God has to be a personal God. No one actually has any need of an impersonal God. We can just forget about him, ie that concept. But i've noticed that many people seem to like to hang on to this God too, almost as if it were personal. But what's the point, he has no direct impact. Its quite meaningless in terms of what differnce it makes to how one conducts their life. Now a personal God is one I disdain. There simply can't be any such thing. That is if you are at all rationally minded. It is the personal God that people find comfort in and it is also the personal God that causes all the havoc we see arising from religious conflict. It is the personal God that demands obedience, performs feats of magic and miracles, gives the pope all his power and has people doing unspeakable things. It is the personal god who listens to your prayers and does or not supposedly answer them. An impersonal god can do none of these things. He, it rather, is so remote. This type of God does not even watch what is going on from a safe distance. An impersonal god is not in the form of man. An impersonal god is more like some physics rule that set the whole ball in motion. That is what is meant by an impersonal god. But i've noticed that most people, especially those who bandy around the term "spirituality" never think about what God is and the implications of the answers to that questions. They are too lazy of mind. They like vagueness.

    Anyway that's my opinion on the matter. I generally don't feel the need to have an endless debate about God any more either. Mainly because people who believe in it can't be persuaded of his non-existence. The existence or not of God is one thing that people have to discover through their own personal experience, not through debate.
     
  8. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    Adam can't have been a permaculturist because the term was only coined in the late 1970's and he was long gone. Sorry, that's very literal of me I know, but there you have it.
    He may have lived a sustainable lifestyle (but we don't really know that either) but it wasn't permaculture.

    And Markos at first read I thought - he's left out the Tantra mob. But then I realized they left early to go and have sex....
     
  9. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    He probably didn't need to either, by default... We have to because we not what IS NOT permaculture... Adam wouldn't have had anything to compare it to...
     
  10. purecajn

    purecajn Junior Member

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    permaculture is just a label. A roses is a roses by any other name. new species are being discovered even today but just because they don't have a name didn't mean they didn't exist already. and when cast out having to Toil for his food to grow. Heck tending flocks even. If he were the first person and depended on nature for his survival then naturally he would develop some of the very first connections that society would ever use no matter how naive they may be at least he'd learn planting cycles and companion planting. he may not be able to explain why the certain plant did well or worse when planted together but he'd recognize and adapt his growing style to adapt. and without fertilizers he'd a had no choice but to constantly looking for connections in nature and apply them for his survival.
     
  11. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    Ahh yes - but someone else planned the garden and water and energy systems for him. He just had to maintain it. There's no design in there. So maybe God was the first Permie because s/he did the planning.
     
  12. purecajn

    purecajn Junior Member

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    true the garden of eden was created by god, but after being thrown out of the garden adam still farmed and maintained a relationship with nature. I can't argue that God was the 1st permi, lol but theoretically if the bible is to be believed in that adam was the 1st man then wouldn't he be the 1st permi to walk on earth? no matter in what stage of development his knowledge and understanding of the environment was? I mean he was still looking for connections.
     
  13. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    Adam was the first man through re-creation... the modern bible leaves the "re" out of the creation story...
     
  14. purecajn

    purecajn Junior Member

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    Either way it was a fun chat with you all. I'm more prone to carrying on in perma study so I'm abandoning this post. Thx all for the reply's
     
  15. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    On the topic of god as planner, I've got a joke for you, eco:

    A planner, engineer, and architect, all find themselves in heaven and standing before god, enthroned in his big chair. God says to the engineer, " You have built some of the most beautiful roads, dams, and bridges in the world. You can take a seat by my right foot." God then turns to the architect and says, " You have designed some of the most beautiful buildings in the world, you can take a seat by my left foot." God then turns to the planner and says, "You, I'm not even sure what you do." The planner looks god in the eye, smiles and says, " I'm a planner, and you're sitting in my chair".
     

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