Was Adam (from the old Testament) the first Permaculturist

Discussion in 'General chat' started by purecajn, Jan 20, 2011.

  1. purecajn

    purecajn Junior Member

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    I do a lot of reading and came across numerous passages in the old testament that gives me the idea that Adam was in fact the first permaculturist and as such, for me, the main purpose for humanity is the nurturing of life on this planet. Your thoughts?
     
  2. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Historically Adam is somewhat of a late comer to the scene, so no he wouldn't have been the first. But I'm curious about this idea. Can you give some examples of what he did that you consider to be permaculture?
     
  3. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    G'day purecajn

    Welcome to the PRI Forum.

    The nexus between permaculture and the OT is one that comes up occasionally in discourse. However, and like pebble has correctly stated, it refers only to a very narrow field of 'research', given that humanity (or 'modern' Homo sapiens alone) has a scientifically proven and documented history spanning 100s of 1,000s of years: (see, for example: Early Modern Homo sapiens).

    As such, I wonder if in your 'reading' you have yet come across Darwin's theory of evolution? Or for that matter, the passages of the OT that refer to, for example, "man's dominion of all that creepeth upon the land"? (see, for example: Genesis 1:26) Hardly a recipe for 'humanity as nurturer', I would contest.

    All very interesting stuff, nevertheless. I look forward to reading an expansion of your 'idea' concerning Adam, the proto-permie.

    Cheerio, Markos
     
  4. sun burn

    sun burn Junior Member

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    Everyone knows that the story of adam and eve is a fantasy, don't they? Anyway what about Eve? Or was she just an unpaid labourer?

    LOL at pebble. Very droll.
     
  5. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

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    I'm not a religious person sunburn, but I do think your comment is a little derisive and potentially offensive and disrespectful.

    There are indeed many, many people (including a large portion of the American population) who believe that the story of Adam and Eve is indeed factual. They believe in Heaven and Hell as physical locations that exist in reality. I think it is dangerous to just make fun of peoples core beliefs.

    I also think that calling the story of Adam and Eve 'fantasy' is a little misguided. Indeed my personal view is that it is allegorical and contains much that we can learn from, which is a very different thing to plain fantasy.

    Whilst my leaning is to the theory of Natural Selection, I would be foolish to think I actually 'know' anything. I still think there is room in my belief system for some elements of a Universal Intelligence. A deeper look into the esoteric often shakes the foundations of my beliefs.

    I'm not sure if it is just your writing style, or if I am reading more into it, but occasionally your posts can seem a little personal and unnecessarily provocative. I am more than happy to hear your opinions and point of view, but I get a little upset when people do this by belittling the beliefs of others.

    I think there is room for everyone in permaculture.

    With respect
    Grahame
     
  6. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    With equal respect to Sunburn as your good self... I have to say you worded that brilliantly, Grahame!
     
  7. sun burn

    sun burn Junior Member

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    I really don't care if i offend someone who believes that Adam and Eve were real. Most bishops do not. I find a lot of childish religious belief somewhat offensive myself.

    The problem with being tolerant of childish religious belief is that there are very very real and harmful ramifications of such belief systems. Some people who believe that it is a sin to abort a child will murder doctors who do such operations. In India little children are married off to snakes and the like. Some little children are committed to living a life as a whore in a brothel and all for religious belief. India is full of obvious real life harmful consequences of such beliefs. Mostly in the west we have better laws that help prevent such crimes. But often people in the west, particularly in America who believe in creationsim for example as this poster appears to do, are zealots in their religious practice. Often Americans will tell you its very uncomfortable to be an atheist in America. On the other hand, atheists will often laugh and scoff at people who hold fantastical religious beliefs but we don't generally submit to murder or crime.

    If you tolerate ignorance, it will flourish. So I am not going to be polite about it. I will not ever go and assault anyone over a belief system. I would never assault anyone over anything unless in a case of defense of myself or someone else but i am not a bystander by nature and I will not stand by and let some talk crap and let them believe they are making good sense.

    Allegorical versus fantasy. Perhaps you are right on that point. Allegorical is a better word but it didn't come to mind so i didn't use it. I think on one level though there is something in common between them in that in each case it is accepted that Adam and Eve did not exist.

    My posts are rarely personal. I always only respond to what has actually been said in a post. I don't presume to know anything about the poster. Sometimes i get annoyed with the vagueness of people's posts, I get impatient with the presumptions and assumptions that are made and casuality with the facts that some people do here. I know I can come across as quite rude. I want to express my annoyance with the way people do these things. It really annoys me when people make assumptions about me and what I am on about when i make a post asking a question. It angers me when people make false claims for the sake of a good story, and it really confuses me when people are vague.

    Graham do you think that just because there are so many people in america who hold these views that we should let them dictate to the rest of us about how to live on the basis of their core beliefs? America and Australia are secular states. These people who hold these religious views, want to change things in society that will restrict people's freedoms. They are not so different from the fundamentalists in Pakistan. Think lately of the people who killed a politician because he wanted the death penalty dropped against blasphemy charges against Islam. Is that not a dangerous outcome of such childish beliefs as I refer to. The American religious right is not far along from this if at all.
     
  8. Nain Dejardin

    Nain Dejardin Junior Member

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    I think you have an issue with context, sun burn

    The bible is intended to teach a way of life... it is completely at the mercy of interpretation and subsequently ends up reflecting the state of mind of the person that applies it.
    The actions of self-righteous believers is a result of how much they actually understand the concepts presented therein. The bible doesn't teach about how to care for the Earth. What is does teach is stewarding the gifts you have been given.
    Context is the most important thing to apply before you form an opinion of such an immense group of people.
    You are completely correct in pointing out the hypocracy in Christianity, but you avoid actually responding to purecajn's discussion by convoluting it with issues that are unrelated. The actions of Christians have nothing to do with the book they are taught from and has everything to do with whether or not a person will study what they've been taught or just swallow it out of laziness. I can point out many groups of people that this applies to.. not just Christians. Religion is destructive when the followers forget humanity. When they think their way is the only way or the right way. But we tend to follow along when we are insecure.. or afraid of change.. or too lazy to affect change... or (the scary one) caught in a heard of destructive, selfish cattle with no chance of ever seeing the true light.
    None of those things that you mentioned in your post are actually in the story that purecajn refers to. They are simply results of people that are too insecure to apply the simple philosophies of love, acceptance and charity.
    Maybe if you have nothing constructive and on topic to add to a thread, you shouldn't..
    It worked for Thumper in Bambi... but that another childish story you probably are offended by...

    As far as I have read, permaculture is a way of thinking and living that brings communities together, brings people closer... I would really love to see more of this type of interaction in a forum that bears it's name.
    I didn't join the "bitch about the state of the world and the humanity that is destroying it" forum.

    purecajn is probably not responsible for those atrocities you have mentioned... he was just expressing an observation.

    IMO purecajn, the garden of Eden was a food forest without Adams input. He was part of the life cycle of the garden so he didn't not need to apply permaculture practices. It's not like Adam created a subdivision, knocked out a bunch of trees and cleared land for development.. then had to figure out a way make his development self-sustaining. Not to mention the idea that the OT suggests that Adam was not the first person on the planet. That in fact their were other cultures already present outside the garden so we can't make an assumption that these peoples weren't also "living off the land".

    I do see God as being the first permaculturist though. He created life on earth that relates in connections and systems to make it a self-sustaining one. I think this idea alone should give those that study the Bible a very clear indication that that is how we are meant to steward the Earth... instead of simply being the parasites that humanity has become.

    Cheers!
     
  9. purecajn

    purecajn Junior Member

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    Wow, look at all the posts on this subject. Guess I shouldn't have waited this long to check back. Ok, back to the subject. I don't apologize for the way I speak as I say what I mean and mean what I say, now on that respect I do understand interpretations can vary so I have no problem with elaborating on anything I say as well. To many wars have been fought due to a "misunderstanding/incorrect assumption." With that said let me begin by saying I respect all religions and believe they have served and continue to serve a purpose in society, there is untold wisdom in them there books, but there is also a lot of controversial passages as well. When I do refer to Adam as a perm I am still referring to a person in a story ( I don't have the enough info to determine whether it really happened and am not going to turn this post into a religious debate. I just understand that Muslim, Jew, and Christian beliefs all have a common ground the old test) My interpretation is god created a the world and a garden within it. God then stuck adam in it to "keep it." gen 2:15 Is this not mans first purpose? the tending of the garden/earth? also, gen 1:28 it says he is to replenish the earth and to subdue/control/care for it. Furthermore, 2ndly it claims that all all herb bearing seed and tree which the fruit yields seed should be meant for meat/food by him and every beast/fowl gen 1:29,30. This is a religious argument for vegetarianism. Now someone saw god as the 1st perm, but tho god made the garden it was adam's job to replenish and care for said garden. If adam is to replenish and care for I'd assume he would have to use a style that would maintain and/or increase soil fertility thereby perm techniques. (ok all, go gentle. this is just a discussion on a story of subject matter which is a hot topic. So is it the Gardner/adam who is the perm or the person who created the garden? And I'd have to agree now that god in this sense would be the 1st and adam the 1st human perm, if the story is to be believed.
     
  10. purecajn

    purecajn Junior Member

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    On 2nd sight Nian, if god created the garden and it was a perm design then it wouldn't need man to maintain it, eh? wouldn't it be self maintaining? And if it was self maintaining then why would the 1st thing adam is told to do is to care for and maintain it. hmmm, or in the alternative god may just been telling adam not to damage the already delicate system already in place and to keep it functional. hmmm, hate arguing w/ myself
     
  11. purecajn

    purecajn Junior Member

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    I understand and agree that adam wasn't the only society running around at the time. how could there son be cast out and marry a local if there wasn't.
     
  12. Nain Dejardin

    Nain Dejardin Junior Member

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    That is a good point, purecajn.... I just interpret that as a call to stewardship like you said. Just as a forest doesn't need man to look after it.. but perhaps look after and protect, I definitely agree on that point.
     
  13. purecajn

    purecajn Junior Member

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    Eco - yes I'm familiar with Darwin. Being from the "Bible Belt" and growing with a rebellious attitude toward authority figures has led me to seek answers outside the mainstream Christian background. As such I've also read the Koran, Dynetics (the L. Ron Hubbard book dun rem how to spell it), the Srimad Bhagavatam (omg, that one is long and a trip), along with unremembered others. As for gen 1:26 I see Dominion to mean control/care for so don't understand where your "Hardly a recipe for 'humanity as nurturer" comes in there. pls elaborite so I can understand your view. and ty for the reply.

    Sun - Was speak about the 1st perm and since adam was before eve I didn't include her in this thread. And you have a incorrect assumption as to my belief system. This is a theoretical discussion about a story from a book. The post was a question, tho vague. Rather than get emotionally involved in a response I recommend asking for a clarification rather than jumping on a soap box before making accusations. But ty for the response and feel free to ask me whatever if your unclear due to my "vagueness.

    Pebble - pls see above post for my answer

    Graham - I tend to lean toward this understanding as well.

    Nian - Your the best, luv your post
     
  14. purecajn

    purecajn Junior Member

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    Pebble - Tho I said see above for answer I'd still like to explain a little more. True adam is a late comer as there were currently societies outside of said garden. as such I'd have to assume ( and I hate doing it ) that these societies weren't nurturing and the planet was in fact dieing whereby god saw fit to place adam in the garden and for adam to care for it whereby he would learn the techniques for "replenishing the rest of the earth". hmmm , now this gives me on another thought. Maybe god after seeing that adam learned said nurturing techniques created eve with the intent for adam to be kicked out and to spread said knowledge. hmmmm new topic in the future....
     
  15. Nain Dejardin

    Nain Dejardin Junior Member

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    I bet you are fun to have beers with.. no end to thought provoking discussion and debate. I am also someone who analyses a subject until I have beat it to a pulp.. hence my fascination for permaculture.. it occupies me and seems to have no limit..
     
  16. purecajn

    purecajn Junior Member

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    Thanks Nain. Alas it couldn't happen as I hate the taste of beer (tho I've never tasted real beer, only this carbonated stuff). Of course maybe a cocktail or 2 as I'm not big on alcohol. I had a friend in Lake Charles of whom we used to sit on his back porch for hours at a time working thru life's little questions, but alas we've went are separate ways in life. I miss the discussions. My days are mainly spent playing WOW. I tried to quit but my roomie won't let me. he has reactivated my acct, bought me a computer in order to keep me playing when I became tired of it. Now I play to pacify him mainly, tho I do still get caught up in the action from time to time..Maybe that is an unconscious reason I started the "Was adam the 1st perm" thread. So the only free time I have now is when he goes on the road for work. thats when I mainly do my studies and work on the yard and house. i know sad right, lol
     
  17. Nain Dejardin

    Nain Dejardin Junior Member

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    Wow.. with a place like that I would have a hard time staying in on the computer box. You have highlighted the exact reason I never gave WOW a try.. all my friends that wanted me to give it a go are completely hooked and give loads of time towards it... as I love a good game.. I am very afraid of finding myself stuck on the box more than just at work like I am right now...
    Those fish you caught look delicious.. I assume they are from your backyard?
     
  18. purecajn

    purecajn Junior Member

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    Yes there from the pond in the back. As for the land, I remember it with a lot more trees, before the hurricane you couldn't see the pond because of the trees. I used to be able to cross the property and never touch the ground, and the pond used to be full of large mouth bass etc... now it's mostly bottom feeders and tho good to eat I'm worried the pond is dieing. in the past we've put 2 diff plant species that took over, one an underwater seeweed type and the other a water lilly. Both did great and the fish loved them but when they took over the neighbors complained and some dumped chemicals in the pond and killed it all off. So now I'm looking for alternative means of keeping the pond live yet still fish-able and swim-able otherwise in come the chemicals again. As mentioned above I thought of a floating garden and letting the plant roots to grow thru the platform and into the water directly with a wind powered water pump pumping water up and over the surface to aerate and assist in cleaning the water by trapping the larger particles on the medium surface thereby building a better soil content on the platform as well.
     
  19. purecajn

    purecajn Junior Member

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    oops, seems this post was misplaced sor all. nain and I were on another thread and it wound up here. I'm still not familiar with this site so please excuse the mispost.
     
  20. Adam

    Adam Junior Member

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    sunburn and pebble, as usual I am in complete agreement with you. Religious ideas should not be above criticism simply because they are religious.

    purecajn, I am glad that you have found ways to weave permaculture into your religion. However, I think as far as the whole "Adam being the first permaculturist" thing is concerned, it seems to be a case of believing somthing because you want to believe it. The idea of Adam as the first permaculturist is pretty absurd due to all the people and societies that existed before him, supposing he existed, which is pretty unlikely. Even if you take it only within the context of the story as you asid, I don't see anything that would point to Adam actually knowing the first thing about permaculture. He was a man living in a garden (or food forest if you like) created by someone else, and eventually got kicked out. Sounds like nothing more than a glorified fruit picker to me.

    Quite frankly I think Judeo-Christianity (and all theistic religions) hold no value at all for permaculture. When eternal paradise is the main objective, taking care of the earth becomes a far lesser priority.
     

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