1. permaculture.biz

    permaculture.biz Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2003
    Messages:
    369
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Occupation:
    https://cli.re/RWPlace
    Location:
    https://cli.re/RWPlace
    Home Page:
    Climate:
    Global
    G'day,

    As someone not averse to "rattling the can" please find following some of the Permaculture Design Certificate (PDC) Courses that I will be the lead teacher or co-teaching on over the next couple of months:

    15-30 September 2006 - Taranaki PDC Course
    Taranaki Environment Centre, Inglewood, New Zealand
    (Lead Teachers: Grifen Hope & Joe Polaischer)
    https://www.environaki.co.nz/courses-education.html

    2-16 October 2006 - Patagonia PDC Course
    Estancia Ranquilco, Argentina
    (Lead Teacher: Darren Doherty)
    https://tinyurl.com/f8wc4

    21 October - 4 November 2006 - Bendigo Permaculture Design Course
    Bendigo, Australia
    (Lead Teachers: David Holmgren, Darren Doherty & Beck Lowe)
    NB. Not "The Permaculture Institute" (Australia) curriculum
    https://mc2.vicnet.net.au/home/pdc2006/web/PDFonline.pdf

    5-18 November 2006 - University of Wisconsin PDC Course
    Stevens Point, Wisconsin, USA
    (Lead Teacher: Darren Doherty)
    https://www.uwsp.edu/cnr/gem/PermacultureCourse/PermacultureHome.htm

    Thanks,
     
  2. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,405
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Darren, how does the curriculum differ from the one the Permaculture Institute expects all PDC's to follow? Is this some kind of gauntlet being thrown down? :?:
     
  3. permaculture.biz

    permaculture.biz Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2003
    Messages:
    369
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Occupation:
    https://cli.re/RWPlace
    Location:
    https://cli.re/RWPlace
    Home Page:
    Climate:
    Global
    G'day,

    Thanks for the note.

    No gauntlet at all as far as I know: though the drums do beat that sound from time to time: it depends whose company you keep....

    Bill always said that "good teachers will create good teachers {look at Geoff & Nadia's students!} and that poor teachers wont stay in the market for very long" {I won't name names there!}. Well that attrition model worked for some time until too many people were complaining about doing their dough on crap courses: bringing the PCInstitute PDC course into disrepute, causing them to abandon that voluntary model of regulation.

    The Bendigo Permaculture Design Course is what you might call a "regional" PDC and as such does not deal cover the full curriculum of The Permaculture Institute's Permaculture Design Certificate Course. An important difference. For some time now The Permaculture Institute (Australia) will only issue Permaculture Design Certificates to Registered Teachers (see https://www.tagari.com/index.php?page_id=18 for more information on the reasons for this and the criteria for becoming a registered teacher). That is certainly not to say that the Bendigo course is not a good one: on the contrary, though it is important for prospective students to know that if they want to learn about tropical permaculture, then they wont do it there. We also don't deal with all of the Alternative Economy issues required by the PC Institute. We have designed this course with Southern Australia in mind, and have to be up front about that, to save confusion and to not build expectations. And students doing this course wont get a Permaculture Institute Certificate.

    As a registered teacher, if I lacked integrity (and wanted a short life expectancy as a registered teacher), I could easily give the Bendigo PDC student a PC Institute Certificate. If students doing a PDC with a registered teacher aren't satisfied that the curriculum is being covered then they should inform the PC Institute. Therefore the system is self-regulating. It would be clearly too much for the Permaculture Institute to require each and every course to submit every course outline for each course undertaken. If we want to go down the APT path then a whole bureaucracy of assessment is layered upon the system: and that is another issue altogether. One of the reasons why The Permaculture Institute has adopted this pretty simple and to date effective model of regulation.

    So clearly, in Australia there are three systems of Permaculture education in operation, two of which are regulated (APT & PC Institute PDC) and the other which is not. The latter is in the minority these days and ongoing success relies heavily on the quality and reputation of the lecturers and the course itself. The success of the Bendigo PDC has been predicated on this.

    Ciao,

    Darren
     
  4. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,405
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Thanks for the clarification there Daz.
     
  5. Squeak

    Squeak Junior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2006
    Messages:
    86
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
  6. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,405
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Yeah, good points raised Squeak.

    I think that there is a step in there where a prospective teacher has to submit an outline of their syllabus to the Institute and give the institute some dollars (the dollars cover the cost of the printing of the bla nk certificates, I guess) before the Institute will send out the Certificates. The proposed syllabus has to reflect the prospective teachers intention and ability to cover the full 72 hour curriculum as defined by old Bill. There is a page on the Institute website that refers to all this.

    I think it is unfortunate that in the acronym PDC, the "C" can mean either "course" or "certificate", depending on who is holding the course. It is a bit like a schism or something, ala Sunni/Shia, Protestant/Catholic or whatever...

    At the end of the day, whoever authorises anything, if people are gathering and discussing strategies for sustainability, that is probably a good thing... but it would be nice at this moment in history if "the Permaculture movement" was a little more streamlined in its approach to its training certification. I am sure there is a lot of ego going on in all this differentiation, which is to be expected I suppose. We are all human after all.
     
  7. Squeak

    Squeak Junior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2006
    Messages:
    86
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
  8. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,405
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I think you are making the point that a PDC (certified or otherwise) does not equip one to be a good teacher, necessarily. I think it is great that you have devoted time to training as a teacher, but that doesn't necessarily mean that people who haven't done the training aren't qualified by their experience to be teachers. Similarly, it really is up to the Permaculture INstitute to decide who it wants to register as teachers. As Darren says, and as the Institute says, poor teachers will earn their reputations quickly enough.

    And, different teaching styles suit different people.

    Geoff Lawton for instance is a fabulous lecturer, in my opinion. I don't think that Geoff had any sort of formal edu beyond high school. Heck, the way he spells he might not even have finished high school! In the time I worked with/for him and the PRI, he was given a lot of constructive criticism from your more new age Permies who wanted him to do more interactive style teaching, and less him standing in front of the blackboard. Personally, I got loads out of his style of delivery (possibly in part because I had done a lot of prior hands-on self education...) and I know that many students preferred his style to your less traditional types like your Robyn Clayfieds or whoever. Of course, there are lots of people who dig that stuff too.


    Um, Squeak, if you spent more time figuring out about what the certification meant than you did studying the content, um, well, I'm guess you weren't being serious, but if you were, well, maybe you shouldn't worry about the certification and should just concentrate on the content... :wink:

    72 hours is a pretty intensive course. It is definitely doable though. I think that the idea is that you go into a course with quite a bit of background be it from reading or observation or whatever, but I suppose not necessarily. Sure, you aren't going to come out of it with instant expertise about exactly how to build a dam, or an encyclopdic mental reference about good and bad companions in the vege garden, but you'll have a pretty good handle on how to proceed and acquire the relevant skills and knowlege.
    From what I know of it, the APT seems like a great way to expand the Permalcuture curriculum, and go into all the skills we need in more depth. I don't know if it is being structured this way, or if there are enough talented enough and committed enough Permies to run the training our there to make it work, but I think that the PDC (certified or otherwise) is really valuable as a primer, as a means of inspiring and provoking us, and that further applied training courses in the form of APT would be wonderful.
    Especially if we can use public money to fund the APT through TAFE etc instead of spending money on advertising for the army and going to off to war.
     
  9. Squeak

    Squeak Junior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2006
    Messages:
    86
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
  10. permaculture.biz

    permaculture.biz Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2003
    Messages:
    369
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Occupation:
    https://cli.re/RWPlace
    Location:
    https://cli.re/RWPlace
    Home Page:
    Climate:
    Global
    G'day,

    Gotta love good old Pandora. I'm dragging myself away from the Saints doing a good job on the Demons for this one so its gotta be good. Something of a metaphor for the way this thread has headed.

    First a declaration: I bullshitted my way into passing year 10 (still shaking my head over that one), was labelled "the most plausible student in the school" in year 11 , and failed HSC by attending 38% of classes by spending most of my school time studying applied sociology, yet despite this I find myself, like Geoff and quite a few similarly afflicted colleagues, "re-educating" all manner of highly trained professionals, more often in the disciplines they are supposed to be professionals of. Funny that. Thanks be to God for Permaculture.

    Thanks for the notes Squeak. I appreciate that there may be some issues with the legalese here. Robyn Francis spelt this out at the COW/CALF that I did with her in declaring to the class that it is illegal to issue certificates and diploma's to people in Australia where the issuer wasn't registered with the whatever whatever bureaucracy responsible. Well I am sure that if somebody had a problem with The Permaculture Institute's (TPI) issue of Permaculture Design Certificate's then they would have been sanctioned by now. Or have I let the cat out of the bag! Certainly the same complaint could be issued regarding their using the term "Registered Teachers" would also apply. Whatever Whatever....

    Third point is that I find it quite surprising that people involved in our movement, especially those who are extracting hard earned from it here in Australia, aren't up to speed on all of this despite the information being out there for some time now. I find that quite perplexing really.

    As for the point on money, well that's an easy one. Costs AUD$125 to apply to become a TPI Registered Teacher. Tony Watkins (a ridgedige School Teacher and fellow TPI Diploma Holder) does this work on behalf of TPI. Most PDC course outlines are at least 12-20 pages to get thru. Then there are the all of the other criteria to get thru as well (refer to https://www.tagari.com/index.php?page_id=18 ). Then Ann (the 3 days per week TPI administrator) does the necessary paper work down at Sisters Creek and its all done. The nicely printed, hand numbered Certificate's cost $2.20 each and that's the deal. So clearly with only 30 odd (counted off TPI website) that's big bikkies.

    As for power well at those numbers that's a mute point. Oh yeah Tagari will sell a few books too for the adventure. As for the action taken to set up the register its classic Permaculture by comparison with how the "legitimate" educational institutions would deal with the problem of crap teachers (and there are none of them out there in the legitimate world?), make them submit an outline according to the curriculum, and where deserved put them on the Teachers' Register. If they are still crap then people won't attend their courses and they will either have to improve themselves or go back to other Permaculture activities that suit their particular skill set. Pretty simple 2 person bureaucracy. Gotta Love it.

    Those few people out there in Australia who are still out in the unclassified wilderness (ie David Holmgren and myself until recently et al) and providing Permaculture Design Courses (not PD "Certificate" Courses) are few and far between. Most people have either gone and got the TPI registration or have issues with TPI/Bill et al and are going down the APT route. That's not much of an industry secret. In time the history will be interesting for all of the respective versions of varacity.

    Watch out 3 quarter time and the Demons are coming back.....

    Now on APT: I think its great. I've done the CALF/COW Cert IV AWT (now superceded by the Cert IV TAA). I declared there and then that the TPI PDC course would become the new Intro to PC course of old. I still maintain that this will be the case, though by gingoes its a bit of a different world once you enter into bureaucracy involved. A lot of people are spending a lot of time and energy machining and oiling this thing into shape. In this world I can't see that ever changing. Is it capable of being a Permaculture in itself - well that will be interesting. Is a TPI PDC a Permaculture well it certainly is energetically. Not much input for a heck of a lot of production. Is there any money in delivering the APT: from my initial estimations no. You have to either charge quite an amount, get a lot of work exchange, or have quite a number of students to make it pay as a convenor.

    As for this being an appropriate thread for Permaculture Chat: well yes it is as I'm sure a lot of people on this forum don't go to the other sections (I stand to be corrected Murray!) and this is a very important issue for people to understand and discuss openly.

    Last 15 minutes of the final quarter and its gotta be close so thanks Squeak and Richard.

    Ciao,

    Daz

    PS the Demons won!
     
  11. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2005
    Messages:
    2,922
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    G'day All :)

    A busy schedule coming up over the next couple of months for you, Darren. Good health and much happiness I wish for you, your family and for all you meet and teach during your journey around the globe.

    There is no doubt in my mind that these future students of yours will receive the same positive outcomes that I continue to experience after having been taught by you and the other fine teachers of last year's Bendigo PDC.

    Keep up the great work, Daz!

    "Better than a hundred years lived in ignorance, without contemplation, is one single day of life lived in wisdom and deep contemplation." Buddha Shakyamuni

    "The guru should be setting an example. The minimum qualities that the guru should possess are wisdom, discipline and compassion. Their good behaviour, the way they lead their life, should set and example to the deciples." His Holliness Sakya Trizin

    Cheerio, peace and good learning/teaching to you all,

    Mark.
     
  12. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,405
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Well, I certainly don't mean to cause any personal offence, but in terms of the ideas I have attempted to canvas; no apologies here. I'll discuss anything that seems relevant, and I think everything I raised is relevant to how we teach Permaculture and how we recognise Permaculture teachers!
    I definitely wasn't trying to be derrogoratory to Geoff. Not in this instance anyway! :lol: So he can't spell. In this case, it shows he has more important stuff going on his brain, I reckon. Like figuring out how to conserve soil and water everywhere he goes...
    Anyway, Squeaky, please forgive me if I have pissed you off. Just trying to have a conversation, eh?

    Oh, and Darren, I think you mean veracity, mate. :wink:

     
  13. permaculture.biz

    permaculture.biz Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2003
    Messages:
    369
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Occupation:
    https://cli.re/RWPlace
    Location:
    https://cli.re/RWPlace
    Home Page:
    Climate:
    Global
    G'day,

    You know I went to bed last night lying there for ages wandering about the veracity of varacity too.....You see all of that naval gazing and proclivity for play at school did me no good. Murray where's that inbuilt spell checker?

    I read the "typos" comment and didn't get it. I'm a bit slow: just ask my dearly beloved Lisa. Yes we need to all take a chill pill, its easy to get sucked in to the heat of the moment.

    Apologies for getting sucked into the emotive vortex of things: I have been strong in the past but got sucked in last night. Just as well I wasn't drinking. My goodness, close game of footy, a few beers, rave about PDC's - I'm really easy game at the best of times but add beer and I'm gone....

    Mark, thanks for the good wishes. Yes we are very busy. Thank god I have used my keyline plow a lot and have planted a lot of trees over the years to (hopefully!) offset the emissions that we will be producing over the next year. Geoff & Nadia are booked up till way into 2007 and we are getting the same way. So this rash of activity over the next couple of months has been stimulated by their surpluses. If I did print advertising again here in Australia then I would never sleep like back in the 1990's. If I were an older fellow back then I'd probably be in the mud hut by now: there is just that much out there.

    We are being supported by the Yeomans Plow Company next year, as long-term supporters of the soil creationist movement. That will be the main thrust of our trip.

    There is just so much to do and so few people involved that could be and should be. As you know it is extremely frustrating to me that there are so few teachers and practitioners out there, especially now there are so many obvious successes to draw from. People are so easily seduced by this "adolescent culture" that we never seem to move on to where we could be. That's part of what drives my path at this stage of the game.

    Ciao,

    Daz
     
  14. Sonya

    Sonya Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2006
    Messages:
    200
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Interesting topic. I'm booked in to do the first course of the new APT Cert IV TAA in a couple of weeks with Janet Millington and Robin Clayfield and I'm really looking forward to it. I'll be doing my PDC shortly after that with Janet at her crayfish farm at Eumundi.

    I've always thought it odd that after only 72 hours of a PDC you can call yourself a permaculture teacher, but I think quality and reputation soon sort out the good from the bad, the natural communicators from those who can't teach (regardless of their qualifications).

    [The new course is a seven day intensive followed up with three months of take home assignments.]

    I'm interested in teaching permaculture and have been strongly encouraged by people who already teach it to start my own courses, but it is not something I am going into lightly, nor to make my fortune. I've thought long and hard about this - am I capable of offering people a good, value for money course where they can walk away from it feeling that it met all their expectations while doing service to the concept of permaculture?

    With training, constructive criticism and student feedback, and time spent co-teaching with experienced presenters hopefully I can.

    Cheers,
    Sonya
     
  15. permaculture.biz

    permaculture.biz Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2003
    Messages:
    369
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Occupation:
    https://cli.re/RWPlace
    Location:
    https://cli.re/RWPlace
    Home Page:
    Climate:
    Global
    G'day,

    You'll enjoy the course with Janet (a long time teaching colleague of mine) and Robin Clayfield. Robin is just a brilliant person and facilitator (her preferred title). I drove straight thru from Nimbin to Bendigo after a week with her just on the mental energy generated. Perhaps it was just me, but after years of auditory learning, and the valuable years I wasted at school and avoiding it really brought it all home for me.

    Ciao,

    Darren
     

Share This Page

-->