Discussion in 'The big picture' started by Roy, Dec 2, 2012.
And this relates to seperation of religion and state powers how?
Your observations are brilliant Grahame. Forming and belonging to a clan of sorts, with a deep dedication to the greater good of group. I too am wondering whether "local chapters" of Permaculture could be formed along those lines. How would one start??
We already have with regional PRI centers. PRI USA, PRI Hawaii, PRI Aussie, etc.
do we really think we have separation of gov' powers and the clergy? religion if you like. religion is a wide net to cast, like christian very broad. if we have explain why a president paid homage to a religious leader, and why a president said that they would look after the children of abraham? we are all the children of abraham, nothing new there.
the ethics we live under separate us from politics and unite how we treat others that is we must love all as ourselves.
and oddly i would suggest that the grass roots masses have no idea our culture has swung from christian base to secular, they will simply be enjoying not having any responsibility to even recognise the bible and instead fill their days with attending and watching sport. respecting other believers is nothing new for us and we need no special law to tell us. we see those of other religions in our town, we buy from their shops, their women respect themselves and i guess their men by appearing in modest attire, not emblazoned with tattooing etc.,. pity that standard did not continue in the broader society.
can't see that secularism is going to deliver that sort of modest, self respect.
add in my post the why? to change sunday to the seventh day of the week, that is a church drive, they've been teaching it to aussie and US kids on a tv show for at least 8 years or about., now a food shop ha a jingle built around it.
yes people should have a day of rest so workers don't get exploited and yes it should be for quality time with their families, but it makes no difference at all then that the day could be saturday or any day of the week.
so deception and church seem to abound hey?
For someone who claims not to judge others, you do a fair impersonation of a person who is very judgemental Len.
Interesting to note that I am somehow a less worthy person because I am 'emblazoned with tattooing'.
That is the question 9'er
I was thinking I would maybe write some sort of constitution/manifesto for my chapter. A Chapter Charter
Probably would need some kind of mission statement included in that or some such other thing people could follow. I reckon there could be a whole bunch of stuff in there involving the Permaculture Ethics etc.
Then when I was happy with Mien Permf I could see if others were interested in having a look at it, tweaking it and maybe joining me??
One of the things that interested me about the Motorcycle club was the idea of 'Prospects', like a probationary member until he earns his 'patch'...
I know it sounds very much like the PRI's and I love the PRI's but in many ways I see them as distributors of permaculture. I am thinking a little more about the implementation and consolidation in small local tribes. A pooling of local resources, of land, of money, of etc etc. Regular club meetings, Regular votes, barn raisings etc. It could be a way of living, not outside of society, but butted right up against the mainstream and yet as near as possible self-contained.
I'm not talking about excluding society from our daily lives, but creating a strong nucleus within it.
And when the shit hits the fan, we are all there to care for and protect each other.
Perhaps my differences are subtle, I'm not sure. I'm talking about a real brotherhood/sisterhood. A Permahood
Imagine you have a club. And you realise you need a stonemason, but there are none in the area. So the Permahood sends out feelers, to other chapters (hoods ), to the general community. What if you found the right person, who was interested and they came as a Prospect to your region. Everything works out and they decide to stay the Hood decides they fit the bill. Then the Hood pools resources, finds the land, builds the place, permablitzes it etc etc The stone mason is inducted. Boom!
No Steiner/Permaschool Teachers in your chapter? Old Mrs Green needs to retire? Send out the word
Miss Booker from Sparkling Brook is looking for a placement. Mrs Green moves into the small apartment flat next door the Sky and Rodney Greens. Miss Booker, her girlfriend (Miss Petal) and their foster kid moves into Mrs Greens Place. Miss Petal just happens to know all there is to know about chicken health.
you can call them judgements mouseinthhouse, it is by observation that i make these comments, and are they not true? tatooing was the domain of some men, not women surely? i that the equality talked of? my wife has full equality she dresses modestly with no adornments. calling comment judgement is akin to gagging, bite the lip stuff. that means there can be no opinion outside what is presented.
mind you you only noted those few words out of a complete post.
anyhow take care
And what about Charlie Farmicide from next door. He drops in to the Permahood Food Co-op we opened in the main street one day, lamenting the lack of rain and wondering aloud how the farm next door is still so green and productive. Mr Bacon has a chat and puts Charlie onto Ling Hoe (our resident Earth works genius). The Permahood offers themselves up for tree planting labour once the earthworks are done.
Charlie is impressed and embraces permaculture (and Miss Plenty from the plenty farm). Bye and bye Charlie considers himself to be Mr Plenty and becomes one of our staunchest members...
Of course not. But we should. Hence the secularist movement advocating for the following:
* Freedom of thought and expression.
* A high-quality education system that is universal, secular and free.
* Equality and non-discrimination based on gender, ethnicity, religiosity and sexuality, including marriage equality and LGBT rights.
* The right of Australians to control their own destiny, such as voluntary euthanasia.
* The abolition of government subsidies and tax breaks for religious organisations.
* The use of science for human welfare, such as stem cell research.
* The use of Australia's seat on the UN Security Council to promote secular democracy, the reduction of poverty, and the urgent prioritisation of international policies on climate change.
Source: Australian Secular Party (2011) Policy overview
Sure is! The Encyclopedia of Religion in Australia (2009) describes in great detail over 100 different religious institutions. And the ABS allows for the numeration of 1,812 different religious 'affiliations' - everything from A Course in Miracles to Zwinglian Calvinist. So many different gods! Is it any wonder those of one particular faith are always going to war against those of another? "My god is THE god". "No, my god is the one TRUE god". "OK, let's have a war about it". Seriously, I understand that by far the majority of all religious people are peace loving folk. It's just that a very small minority hide behind their religious convictions in order to pursue their murderous intent.
My guess is that he/she was looking for votes? In his last Inaugural Speech, Obama refers to a 'creator' and a 'god' on numerous occasions. And with over 83% of the USA adult population adhering to one religion or another, it would be political suicide for a president to not purport to have some sort of 'faith'.
Not me. My parents were called Nathan and Rose.
By the use of 'we', I presume you are referring to your good self? If that is the case, then from past reading I would also assume that your ethics are those which are contained in the decalogue? If this is the case, then I would suggest that you live more in alignment with 'politics' than you do separate from it. At its core, 'politics' is about uniting people rather than dividing. Socio-ecoligical politics - or Libertarian Municipalism - extends this platform to include a building of respect for diversity and individual liberty within the polity, while still allowing for and encouraging the collective or municipal good.
Whether they, the 'grass roots masses' (whoever 'they' are) have any 'idea' or not, Australia has - at least constitutionally - been a secular society since 1901. Although, and as those that support secularism would suggest, it remains a very confused society. Take for example the constitutional arrangement that sees some religious schools receiving government funding, or even some state schools teaching one particular form of religion or another - hardly what one could consider a total separation of church and state.
Does that same level of respect extend to non-believers of your particular brand of faith? It would not seem so:
I have a large, prominent tattoo (lower left leg). My brother is practically covered in them. His wife has them extending over her hands, feet, up her neck and on to her face. Does this mean that she, he and even myself do not come up to your 'standards'? What if I told you that both they and myself were bible carrying, god fearing, church attending persons - who just happen to have a few tattoos. What if I told you we were all following traditional South Pacific Island tradition, and that our tattoos were an expression of our connection to our gods? Would any of this change your opinion?
Secularism is all about respect, Len. Respect for one's self (i.e. through the acquiring of a universal, free and secular education), and respect for the broader society in which one lives (i.e. making that same education available to everyone).
G'day Brother of the Hood
If you are seeking further inspiration for your Manifesto, you may like to check out the following (presented in chronological order of birth/death):
Kropotkin (1842-1941) Collected Works
Geddes (1854-1932) By living we learn
MMG (1871-1961) The Magic of America
Mumford (1895-1990) A Bibliography
Jacobs (1916-2006) Walk
Bookchin (1921-2006) A Bibliography of Published Works
Just a few from the many hundreds that continue to inspire me.
we mean we when we say we, we follow God's rules presented around 6k ago, do you need me to quote them, when i say believers that is too a broad term you have your beliefs every one does.
the ethics we follow preclude us from being against anyone or hating.
education is far from free, and not always available to all, if one is well endowed then maybe but not if one is poor.
time will tell if the president was being politically wise.
public schools seem to dip out in favour of wealthy private schools most working under your religious mantle.
so as we progress even with gun control, tragedy rules supreme, hasn't quelled or been quelled look at sydney at least daily occurrences almost.
that secular creed is missing the point. when i was born and went to church we were best described as a christian society. if all followed the 6 moral commandments we follow we would all live in peace together.
if some want their children to receive religious instruction at school, why not that is there call and why schools are there to educate. do not some take time out for prayer?
chuckle mentioning your parents names.
anyhow i might say is that the tolerance of me or others like me (no visible) is low, that's ok, me and mine are causing no one harm
i would suggest there will never be a separation of church and gov'.
and out of all you said how do we unite australia as a peaceful and safe place to live in its entirety.
missed that what you said before: " Is it any wonder those of one particular faith are always going to war against those of another? "My god is THE god". "No, my god is the one TRUE god". "OK, let's have a war about it". Seriously, I understand that by far the majority of all religious people are peace loving folk. It's just that a very small minority hide behind their religious convictions in order to pursue their murderous intent."
so very true hey, are you further able to identify the god's those as you say murderous people worship?
my lips will be glued together just looking at the many theaters of strife especially in the mid eastern area etc.,.
i can happily say you or others have nothing to fear from me and mine and others like us.
take care mark
Thanks for separating your thoughts, it makes it much easier to respond:
No thanks, you have already provided them here.
Exactly. Probably why secularism is such a good thing, remembering that it advocates for an education system that is universal (read: global), free (without monetary cost), and secular (free from religious indoctrination).
One US president is pretty much the same as another. What difference does it make? Slightly left of centre or slightly right... at the end of the day (decade, century) they all pay lip service to those with the real power (vis-a-vis money).
Yes to the first, a big question to the second. What 'religious mantle' are you referring to. I don't subscribe to any religion.
Tabloid journalism would like to have you believe so. In fact, statistics suggest that the rate of gun homicide in Australia has never been lower (at least in the last decade):
Source: AIC (2011) Australian crime: Facts & figures, p. 16
Not so. With increased rates of education, adherence to irrational beliefs (including religion) fall, and not surprisingly, so do rates of violent crime:
On an international, national or sub-national level, greater religiosity does not inevitably lead to a more peaceful society. Increasing rates of atheism and agnosticism do not and have not correlated with increasing crime rates. In fact, in many instances, the opposite has been true: increased religious adherence is correlated with more violence and social instability.
Source: Secularist (2013) Religion, Atheism and Crime
I have no problem with religious schools teaching religion, just don't expect the state to foot the bill. There is a big difference between universal, free and secular education, and religious indoctrination. Hence (once again) the need for secularism.
Probably not while we still have religion, but at least rates of adherence are falling:
Source: Wiki (2013) Religion in Australia
Personally, I don't subscribe to the 'united Australia' rhetoric - al la One Nation. Rather, I tend (as most social ecologists do) to view things from the perspective of the bioregion. As such, we respect our differences at the individual level, and we rejoice in the strength of the human collective at the biospherical level. How do we get to this point? Check out the work I have suggested that might inspire Grahame's forthcoming Manifesto on this very subject.
i can say we are not of your religious violence set, in our culture your graph show low gun death rates there should be none.
if we don't stand together then it could be hard to live together.
suppose over all not much a census fall on adherence, the way it seems is in the last 30 or so years violence in our society has increased, gun deaths not dramatically down since gun control as i see every death is one too many. from just above the line to just below the line, but if that satisfies some goodo hey
lots of religions in mass killings lots of good people out there not wanting that representation, young girl gets shot in head by big brave bloke up india way, a women up near that region shot for supposedly being involved in adultery case.
so you also say teh 6 moral codes are irrational mumbo jumbo sort of stuff, what is wrong in following a code that says not to kill; to love one another; to respect each others property and not to steel.
then when people look for safer home we put stumbling blocks in their way and their lives are further at risk if that is the secular way you lost me.
whether people stop going to a church or not does not remove the church from politics
oh! thought i saw a link to the aus' constitution 1901 but it is now gone
Perhaps you missed it: I adhere to no religion.
All religious adherents have the capacity to commit murder, as do non-aherants. It just so happens that the former do it more often than the latter, as described and referenced here.
In response to a particular segment of your amended post:
Exactly where do I say this?
Nothing at all. In my personal life, I try to subscribe to a very similar philosophical code - but one with very much less emphasis on the personal 'property' aspect.
In my professional life, I'm bound by a very practical 'code of conduct'. To date, it has served me very well in that capacity.
by your religious i mean the ones you have in mind, and yes there are crook religions out there so please again don't mention them in the same sentence with us.
you said;"adherence to irrational beliefs (including religion) fall, and not surprisingly," about our 6 moral codes they are not fanatical or irrational.
dunno who you wanted to hit when you threw the poo at the fan, again it should not be meant for us, i've always tagged you as and even handed intelligent person, but you seem to have a real hate or detest toward people who believe in a deity who are never likely to cause you or your family any troubles. you do seem overtaken with those religions you mention who rape and pillage.
if we don't respect each other and each others property what do we have some verging on anarchy? makes some church zealot with the idea he can promote the abolishment of coveting anothers things wife; kids everything.
wont' compare ideals but we'll stick with the ones we believe in, our neighbours at least will be safe and when they come home it will still be there.
you stick to secularism that can be seen as a religion especially when you are locked into the box and expect people to join in with no idea of a safer happier life. evolution is a religion anything that draws a following, i'm just trying to protect myself from being slandered with the guilty
Separate names with a comma.