2 wrongs a right will never make, we need to return to habitat to its originality before we introduce anything else. and PC projects are small fish in that large ocean of humanity because 1 group or person does something it does not describe the broader community, if that was so then what we do can be claimed as fixing our current issues or issues coming our way. can't camouflage the fact that sth africa has terrible things happening thing we heard about app' 8 years ago, certainly not getting better in a hurry hey and all to do with making people down trodden. then allowing them the right to pillage(michael or mark don't understand that one) mark says he's low on comprehension again? mark i have said many times what i see coming and many times you and others admit to a blinkered view of things, i will say again unless aussies as a community come to stand together those who promote these feel good things will divide us and cause much suffering. len
See what Bhutan is doing. Very inspiring in a country that measures its wealth by gross domestic happiness. https://phys.org/news/2012-10-bhutan-aims-nation.html
good one for bhutan annette, nothing like that will ever happen here as happiness is measured in investment returns. and also reckon majority of bhutanese are all on the same playing field over here way to much self interest groups wanting to impose their dreams on others. len
There might be the odd group doing great work in South Africa but I am in South Africa a lot, follow politics and news there every day and that country is on the verge of implosion. The haves are leaving the country in droves because the masses are on the verge of taking what they don't have and a lot of them look to the example of lunatic Mugabe's Zimbabwe as an example. As a result of 'land redistribution' there without a proper structured transition the country collapsed. Ten or so years later a few new farmers are starting to have some small success (ie they actually grow stuff!) but at the cost of millions of jobs, environmental destruction, murder, rape and torture. I was there one year before the place really went to shit and you would have thought it was business as usual with flourishing agriculture, horticulture and forestry, infrastructure working, education levels high, boom tourism etc etc. I was there two years after and it was a total catastrophe. And that is the rub. We have tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of people here who rely for their existence on the system we have now in commercial agriculture directly and indirectly. Unless alternative income streams are found for these people and found quickly, not to mention the hundreds of thousands in other unsustainable industries, what do we think might happen? If we think we live in a 'civilised' first world country and the Zimbabwe experience can't happen here I think we are deluded. As I see it, there is no peaceful, structured plan of change that will account for this in the time frame needed and I am yet to hear a permaculturist describe one. Maybe that is the frustration Len feels. I can understand that but I don't expect a plan because I don't think one exists. It doesn't mean I throw my hands in the air and just 'live for today', it is what it is and I will just keep muddling along doing the simple living thing.
Len, Judging by your responses I'm sure you are not understanding me or the things I am saying. Please remember I am expressing my opinions and visions about how a perfect world might look. I'm not expecting to drag everyone in the world along behind me kicking and screaming. Truthfully, I doubt we will ever get there. But, it is my purpose in life to do everything in my powers to bring positive changes to the world of humans. What other purpose is there in life? Let me ask you a few questions. Are the conventional dairy farmers important to you? Is sourcing locally produced fresh milk even something you see as important or worthwhile? I couldn't agree more. Len, they are my imaginings and my visions surely I am entitled to include whom ever I see fit? Surely you are not telling me how I should think!? But lets put that aside for a moment... In my vision the world is full of people who care for each other AND care for the Earth. I don't see the two as mutually exclusive. I see them as complimentary. As you rightly point out the current system seems to care for neither. I'm not sure why you would object to a vision such as mine. Do you think it would be terrible to live in a community where people can ride a bicycle down the path to where Farmer Jones has fresh milk available to them? Would it be such a bad thing to walk down to the produce market to find fresh healthful local food rather than to drive to the stupidmarket to pick up bland cold-stored rubbish? I think you objections are to the reality of things rather than the vision I propose. The vision first and foremost is about where we would like to get too. Once we have the vision we can look at how we might best transition with the least amount of pain. To ignore the realities of where this current system is taking us is surely going to cause more pain in the-not-too-distant future. The masses are an integral part of my vision because I would love to see all people prosper but not at the cost of the environment. If we don't care for the environment there will be very little prosperity for anyone in the future. You must already know this because you rightly point out that we need to replant the forests. As to that I ask you, is it any more realistic that we will replant the forests with these 7 billion ravenous people than it my visions become reality? My vision is not exclusive of re-planting the forests either. In fact it is essential. In that we agree. Len, you say this as though a solution should be served up to you on a silver platter, as though you don't need to be a part of the process. You also say we need to do something different. Where are your solutions? Seriously Len, you need to take some personal responsibility and stop expecting so much of others and the world. As you would be well aware... God helps those who help themselves. I am honestly flabbergasted that you think I make the poor downtrodden. I believe the growth economy system and globalisation is responsible for much of the worlds poor and as a result I work every day to distance myself from that system. I suggested that if all the people who are able to do something, did so we would make some pretty amazing changes. Fair go Len. Permaculture is relevant everywhere whether people are aware of it or not. It is one of the solutions to the problems we are facing as a civilisation. If you don't believe that then why do you bother coming into this forum? What is is you get from coming here Len? It does seem to just make you angry. Or is it an outlet for your frustrations at the world. I think you are being melodramatic there Len. Do you really think that all the high ridges will be covered by turbines? Are they really clearing any more trees or are they going on the already cleared lands? Do you imagine that all people interested in the natural systems want that? Come on Len, if you are going to be taken seriously you need to be less emotive. This thread was originally about Ultimate Energy sources. So tell us, what are your solutions. Are you talking about my posts? I'm not sure what you mean here. My vision for the world is for the whole world, but I'm happy to start locally. Think global, Act local Again, your meaning is a little unclear. Do you mean if my vision of a Utopian world of permaculture and abundance for everyone ever comes to pass you would have to cop it sweet? Would it deprive you of reasons to be angry and complain? Visions for the future are not about what is happening now Len. Visions about what we would like to have happen. In Victoria now we have the Victorian Farmers Market Association which is working towards more and more Farmers Markets with certified owners, growers and producers of local produce. It is not perfect yet, but it is really improving. These all start with people who have a passion to see things done. They don't just drop out of the sky into your lap. If you want to have them you have to actively encourage them. Len, I think you are failing to comprehend the simple truth that 'food' in supermarkets is just too cheap. The prices are unsustainable, farmers are producing foods in cheaper and nastier ways that will eventually lead to catastrophe. That is what unsustainable means. That is the crux of it all. I believe people are expecting too much!!
grahame not going to dissect your response well at this time, we cannot source local milk right from the cow, would love that but anyone who has a house cow is scared off from passing on extra milok so we can't even get near them, teh gov' has tied milk up under laws, maybe you dreams could be to take away these regerssive type laws. here you again turn around what i said i personally don't want anything on a silver platter but the way you and others aspire to dreams it is the masses who won't ever get your point, and could very well bring it all undone, but again all these words have been said before you horizon of wisdom is very limited, blinkered as i said and whilst ever you try to slam others like me down you will never achieve. how are you green people going to achieve your dreams unless it is going to be drag the masses of australia's 22mill' kicking and screaming with empty bellies and no harms to your alter. food in supermarkets is too cheap?? wow what an indictment upon yourself you would have people starve? you want them without homes and power. touch of reality please for no other reason than greed food has gone up around 20% since last july. people with hungry bellies get angry len
G'day Len I'm not sure if you know, Len, but if you are referring to michaelangelica (Michael), he died some time ago. Please show some respect and refer to this great man and his words of wisdom in a past tense, and preferably with correct citations. As for your assertion that I 'don't understand', please show me exactly where I have stated people have 'the right to pillage'. If you are unable to do so, please retract your statement and offer an apology. Again, Len, please show me where in my posts I 'admit to a blinkered view of things'. Or, you may even be able to help me comprehend the same a little better by describing exactly how one goes about admitting to a blinkered view in the first place? Yes, but not only the (nearly) 23 million humans in Australia need to come together, we need to come together with the other (nearly) 7.1 billion humans on the planet - for the sake of all life, human and non human. We all understand this, Len. But my original question to you was, how do you envision this happening? Grahame offers his vision, one that I'm more than happy to be a part of. My vision has been discussed in great detail in a great many of my posts. All I'm simply asking now is for you to provide us with your vision. Cheerio, Markos
give up mark you are so far off the mark i dunno? no hope for the rest of us, why would i refer to an angelo from the mythical past?? i've got a life i don't need any of their copy cat philosopies or false prophecies. we you have said you cannot comprehend read your own words please? a bit of a broadside attack now by those in arms. mark do yourself a favour maybe? get australia working 1st then the rest of the world will follow. what are you people going to do to say follow bhutan? sounds good waht they are doing as a nation united. cut the disunity policies grahame and you and others here offer your vision just like sages and sears of teh mythological past and just like in the past dreams is all they will ever be unless you engender humanity and get on side with the masses of aussies who suffer. i have dreams and aspirations but keep them to myself as they will never come to fruition with all this myth stuff around. so all i can look forward to is more and more hardship dealt by others. no one here wants to take account of that now happening. len
We can all come up with a vision but a vision is not a thorough, workable, implementable plan. I don't agree with a lot of what Len says, but now that I am starting to be able to interpret 'Len speak' a bit better I am finding a lot of truth in some of what he is trying to get across. It is one thing for people to practice permaculture and have a 'vision' for the future it is another to acknowledge the realities of the current system and world order and find real ways to deal with it (and I haven't heard or read any here or elsewhere) that will deliver the sort of outcomes we permaculturists think ideal. I think permaculture is possibly workable for about 2 billion people but 7, 10+ billion? Dreaming. It is going to end rather badly in a drawn out painful affair which will be fascinating and horrifying by turn. I think the best we can do is tinker about putting out spot fires for a while, live our lives the best way we can and take responsibility for our own essential needs. I am fortunate I am in a position to do so. Millions are not. I think I am coming to terms with this and not being so depressed about it. What will be, will be.
G'day Len Yes, and not only that, grid supplied water, electricity and gas, and petrol at the bowser, all of this is too 'cheap' as well! I think this is where you fail to grasp the complexity of the situation, Len. For example, in your diatribe on permaculture, you denigrate the movement as a failure 'because there needs to be some intellectual structure that the name points to'. Yet when you are consistently and constantly pointed in the direction of the intellectual basis that underpins the permaculture movement, you refuse to explore it because it does not fit with your extremely narrow world view. Then you have the audacity to turn around and accuse others of holding a blinkered view. Incidently, if you were to ever read Holmgren you might begin to understand that 'energy' (the very topic of this thread) is all encompassing in permaculture thought and action, and if we fail to fully understand the energy cycle (in all of its guises) then we fail to understand - or for that matter, implement - a way of moving forward that is sustainable. Honestly, Len, I feel your pain. I understand you are hurting, both physically and mentally. I understand you feel the world is against you. But have you ever stopped to consider the views of others? I implore you, please read Holmgren. There is a copy available at your regional Library. Please read and widen your world view, even if it is just a little bit, and I'm sure you will find that the world is not such a scary place after all, and that we who hold a vision for a better, more rational world - here on Earth - are not your enemy, but your sisters and brothers working in unison to plan, design and build a world where we can all live in perpetual peace and collective harmony. Cheerio, Markos
There is no utopia or ever will be in either reality or theory. You just do your best and chop wood and carry water...............
Markos I think you are totally failing to understand the crux of Len's argument. I am starting to get a bit peeved too with the whole 'we have the vision, the answer to peace and harmony and a sustainable future thing'. Yes, permaculture is the best design system I have seen for living sustainably. Now can someone, anyone, explain in detail how to implement it and sustain it for 7-10+ billion mostly urbanised people within the next couple of decades before the anarchy sets in?
good onya markos, you hold onto that one mate sorry you and grahame. what a sad sorry world of sufferance you wish upon other humans. so now you are a psychiatrist??? and can judge others supposed mental capacity from the written word and from afar, sorry mate again wrong. no mate you and tour cohorts against humanity i feel fine where i am. better things to read. so your answer MITH is permaculture?? not a hope in hades. len
G'day MITH For sure, you are quite right. One future scenario does indeed see it all ending rather badly for a great majority of the world's humanity, and the many other non-human species that we will drag along to annihilation with us. But, where we differ in opinion is, it does not have to end this way. For example, in Holmgren's Future Scenarios (temporarily closed for maintenance) we can see that there is at least three other ways, one of which is the preferred way, the permaculture way. Ted Trainer aptly calls it 'the simpler way'. Murray Bookchin called it 'social ecology'. It is known by many names. Integral ecological theory describes over 200 different ways, each of which come back to the one fundamental principal - we only have one planet, and we all have to learn how to get along and share it, indefinitely. Oh, I know it sometimes seems that people who espouse 'grand visions' view the world through 'rose-colored glasses'. But it really is a simple fact, what Grahame suggests, without the vision we have nothing. We enable our own reality through the extension of our vision. We can either be content to live a simple, ignorant, and a most likely 'brutish and short' existence in 'a world that [we] may not understand' - to quote our good friend, Len (and Hobbes). Or we can go about furthering our knowledge to gain a better understanding of the world we live in, in order to find new ways of living more sustainably. I choose the latter, because I see no reason to live if the former is all we have to offer our children. Cheerio, Markos
G'day MITH With all due respect, Len and I have been having this 'conversation' for well over half a decade. As such, I feel very much empathetic towards Len's point of view. However, this does not alter the fact that we - humanity - need a fundamental shift in the way we think - indeed, in the way we the way we organise ourselves, hence the links I provided in the previous post - if we are to ever move forward in a way that is more sustainable. As an aside, anarchy (communalism), in its true sense of the word, is what we are hoping to achieve. Cheerio, Markos
We are all ultimately responsible for our own outlook on life. Perhaps chopping wood and carrying water is utopia.
G'day Len I know it is hard for you to believe, but I really do feel great empathy toward you, indeed, toward all of humanity. Why else would I have devoted the rest of my life to the humanist cause? Regarding your statement that you have 'better things to read': Could you please share your reading list with us all? Cheerio, Markos
I think there are clear plans for implementing permaculture on a worldwide scale, which are, in fact, being implemented. Lots of examples: https://www.permaculturenews.org/ Global in scope: https://permacultureglobal.com/ The plan: https://www.permaculturenews.org/about-permaculture-and-the-pri/ More about plans and actions: https://permaculturenews.org/2012/11/17/finding-sustainability-in-ecosystem-restoration/
