Ultimate Energy Sources

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by Farside, Feb 12, 2013.

  1. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    yeh MITH,

    they are ugly things hey, would rather see the habitat replaced far more appealing, and the trees would really suck up carbon, not pretend measurements.

    yes but that's the thing hey 'annette', you slug the culprits and they slug the consumer, so it only hurts the consumer, the CEO's still get big pays. same thing happened in that period when there were strict controls and higher costs on water, home users took steps to reduce water use actually and save extra cost, but then all business simply added the extra cost of water to their bottom line, same with CO2 tax, which also will send manufacturers off shore.

    better off with more forests and cheap power.

    len
     
  2. mouseinthehouse

    mouseinthehouse Junior Member

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    Len, I actually think they are quite beautiful in the landscape but beauty is in the eye of the beholder I guess.

    Is there anyone on here who can explain to me why the government has a carbon tax in place and a compensation scheme at the same time?
     
  3. annette

    annette Junior Member

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    It was ill conceived, done in a hurry, designed badly and they needed to placate the big polluters MITH. Bit like the mineral super profit tax.
     
  4. mouseinthehouse

    mouseinthehouse Junior Member

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    Yeah, but how do they say it works exactly. Or is it just too Monty Pythonesque to understand?
     
  5. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

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    I think it basically explained like this...

    The government taxes the 'big emitters' for which they collect about 2x dollars.

    Then the government recognises that the big emitters will just charge more to the users, so they dish out about x worth of the 2x dollars to 'soften the blow'. (This is of course a politically attractive thing to do).

    You must realise of course that the big business is only going to push the prices up to as much as they can get away with. The government handouts mean that the price is not immediately pushed too high or compounded over the whole economy (because they give other businesses compo too).

    Len is not wrong, when he points out that the businesses just pass the new costs onto the users. This is the problem with the continual growth economy.

    Luckily, we permies have a great design technology at our disposal so that we can make more lasting and effective changes from the ground up. The whole economy is based on Supply and Demand and fortunately we can effect the economy in both areas. We can certainly reduce the demand, by using less. We can effect the supply by supplying sustainably produced goods and services to our local community.

    Sometimes we get bogged down in what is wrong, which is understandable. But the great thing is that we already have a lot of solutions. Lets discuss them, implement them and think of more.

    I honestly believe we are going to get much greater and faster changes this way than we will ever see coming from governments.
     
  6. mouseinthehouse

    mouseinthehouse Junior Member

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    I don't know what the commercial dairy farmers should do? I guess we should all buy organic milk?
     
  7. annette

    annette Junior Member

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    I don't know really. Perhaps if everyone stopped buying the $2 milk and petition the big 2 to pay a fair price for milk? The government could legislate for raw milk to be made available legally so that the farmers could sell without any processing costs. At the moment it has to be for bathing purposes only. I pay $7 for 2 litres direct from the farmer.
     
  8. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    I want "flow forms" on my property tied into a pond, or more. :think: I also want to tie in multiple types of wind mills & solar systems (passive & active). Beyond those 2, I start getting into Schauberger stuff like... water vortex stuff &...

    [video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OA0lTsQcoSU[/video]
     
  9. mouseinthehouse

    mouseinthehouse Junior Member

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    Paka, have you read the book 'Off on our Own' by Ted Carns? He and his wife live in Pennsylvania off-grid and have the most extensive set of systems of every description it is mind boggling! It was an interesting read if you are into using recycled old stuff and a lot of initiative to set up energy systems, recycling systems etc etc.
    It all looked way too complex for me but it is quite some feat what they have achieved and the property is incredibly beautiful. Not exactly permaculture strictly but a lot of useful stuff there.
     
  10. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    I have not, but it sounds like something I would be interested in, thank you very much. :)
     
  11. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Senior Member

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    "cheap" power is an oxymoron
     
  12. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    surely MITH, a nude landscape with windmills, they aren't compatible with habitat.

    anyway we don't buy the cheap milk, did buy organic but our shop now has stopped stocking it.

    only if you don't want to think laterally GH, and consider the needs of the community instead of trotting along with a feel good trend.

    len
     
  13. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

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    Personally I don't drink or use milk but I may if I get a house cow or a neighbour with a house cow. I'm not sure we really should be supporting the big conventional dairy farmers anyway?
    All that said, I look at it this way...

    In a perfect (permaculture) world everyone would have access to fresh milk from a local cow, but clearly we have moved a long way away from that. I still think it is an aspirational goal we can work towards.

    So, I think what we need to do is whatever is within our powers to move toward that aspirational goal. Which means every persons actions will be different according to their current circumstances. It's all about taking the next step away from the current model and into the new model. If everyone took the next step we would be collectively along the road much further than we imagined.

    An example of this might be...

    A person that currently buys milk from the big supermarkets could buy from an independent local grocer as a first step.

    A person who already buys milk from an independent grocer could start buying organic milk from that grocer.

    Someone already doing that, could start sourcing milk from a farmers market. I know this is currently not allowed in Australia, but then perhaps one persons next step would be to lobby the local government etc. to make it legal.

    Someone buying from a farmers market might start visiting a local farmer.

    Someone already buying from a farmer might find a permaculture property around willing to trade.

    Someone already doing this might find that it's time they move to producing their own milk etc.

    Of course the difficulty is that we often have competing visions and aspirations, or no visions and aspirations. I've mentioned before that I think one of the things that is often missing in the discussions of permaculture is what we imagine it to look like, what are the social structures, what do towns and villages look like, what does public transport look like. I believe in order to get from point A to point B we need to have some sort of vision. And the more detailed the vision the better.

    If all we ever think about is getting away from the current circumstances then we are forever looking behind us. For any transition to work we need to first transition our minds, our thoughts, the way we perceive things. Finding fault with the now is really only useful if we envisage the world without those faults and work towards it in all our daily actions.

    That's my 2cents
     
  14. mouseinthehouse

    mouseinthehouse Junior Member

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    Of course the difficulty is that we often have competing visions and aspirations, or no visions and aspirations. I've mentioned before that I think one of the things that is often missing in the discussions of permaculture is what we imagine it to look like, what are the social structures, what do towns and villages look like, what does public transport look like. I believe in order to get from point A to point B we need to have some sort of vision. And the more detailed the vision the better.

    I couldn't agree more but when I try to think about it realistically and critically I have to honestly say I don't think we can get to point B. I just do not believe it is possible in a structured way with 7 billion mostly urbanised people. Or with a couple of billion people for whom the current first world standard is what they aspire to.
     
  15. annette

    annette Junior Member

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    And that is the crux of it MITH. Apart from most of us permies, most are glued on to the first world standard and nothing less will do. Most don't have a vision as
    Grahame describes. Until you have a change in attitude and behaviour, a vision of an alternate way of living is way off unfortunately. Those of us that have an interest in preserving the natural systems and recycling and conserving are in the minority. Government policies do not support us and yes we do have options to do things at grass roots level, but trying to break through the predomant thought of society is very hard. However, I am hopeful and all we can do is walk the talk. Do what we can to change attitudes in a loving way. and pray maybe..................:)
     
  16. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Senior Member

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    Ever seen a coal mine and a power station in the landscape?.......... give me the wind mills any day
     
  17. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    that's it grahame,

    we do buy our milk from the indipendant local bloke his range of other stuff is too small for much more we do get things we need, you see he sells exactly the same 3 litre brand milk for $1 less than the big counterpart. and they don't sell organic they are a convenience store. some people seem to have a very warped view of things, like a once upon a time fairy tale, well reality is is not, their minds full of all sorts of stuff if introduced at the right time in the right way may make a positive mark. and it is the few dictating to the many.

    nothing wrong with dreams an aspirations, but don't dump the masses into you imaginings, i said before we need an alternative well get it up and running so all can see how efficient and affordable it is, none of this stand over stuff.

    the poor struggle all the time that they can live with, making ends meet occassionaly but you make them downtrodden and very soon sth africa's ills will be our, pretty much if you can't afford a gated security community you will be open to violent intrusion.

    like at least i have said before permaculture is only relevant in small single minded communities by and large the masses don't even know what it is. how can there be an interest in the natural system if trees are to be replaced by windmills, on all the high ridges.

    in eh posts they are full of single mindedness. nowhere near looking at the big 7billion picture, there is no grasp of teh 22million picture here in australia, let alone the billion in china, needing cheap power with our coal, is that an oxymoron?

    me well we'll just have to cop it sweet with the masses, should this fairy tale really ever get off the ground.

    lot of mights there grahame, we used to go to local markets, dunno what these farmers markets you talk of are, but there was not even any homegrown vege's and fruit, nothing in season. did look at a sort of farmers market in sunshine coast hinterland everything was priced like gold, so no answers there for those on a shoe string budget. some reality please. also out western sub's of brissy a permaculture event too expensive to get into then all this yuppy type stuff any food simply too expensive to even buy for a sample, so no answers there.

    len
     
  18. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    G'day Len

    That's quite a spray, what little of it I can comprehend.

    However, what I think it is that you are trying to convey, is that you feel G's vision of pursuing a more collective model for transitioning to a more sustainable future is of little value.

    As such, I wonder if you could provide us with an outline of how you envision the future?

    Cheerio, Markos
     
  19. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    I get to see hectacres of land, clear cut.. with animals wandering amok wondering wtf happened here in Oregon. I see everyday, an entire ravaged & destroyed ecosystem for cattle / sheep pasture. I have seen entire mountains strip mined for dolomite, & then rebuilt with garbage that resulted in underground fires. I have seen coal plants in CA & ya know what... give me wind mills too.
     
  20. Ludi

    Ludi Junior Member

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