I think this is where the gifting and sharing economies come in. I think we need to be more willing to share, even though sharing is not currently fostered and rewarded in our society. Competition, not cooperation, is currently rewarded by the system, so as Grahame says, we need to be transitioning to another system. I personally think permaculture is that system, in conjunction with a sharing ethic (which some find in the 3rd ethic, some don't).
yes then why are people promoting teh causes of decieptful gov' and high end rollers? this is not humanitarianism this is self interest without any respect to the real cost, look to sth africa for what happens when teh poor become downtrodden, michael says he does not understand what i said in a post then he should widen his wisdom, lateral thinking is corralled by blinkered narrow vision. charity begins at home if we can't look after our own how can we sustainably look after others? i don't want aussie going the way of other countries, and making our poor suffer will not help the poor in other countries, so it really makes no sense in supporting the stand over mega rich who go there by raping our habitat. want a change then set something up and working so we can all see where it is going, no pie in the sky stuff, why should we the masses trust those up top when all they do is lie. people here are in aus' are already being FORCED to economise, they can't afford food or to cook it so this helps the multinational fast fooders(open eyes please), people at the end of the day need to eat, how do you honestly think we can ever have a healthy stand together community if people and their needs get pushed lower and lower. i've seen families sleeping in the foreshores, in vehicles, in tents in old vans. don't rely on charities doing too much they like full coffers been there so have experience, they only donate when there is a tv camera on scene. they treat all donated funds as their own personal wealth. people first charity at home 1st. len
I think we all agree then, that this growth economy is an angry, heartless beast and nothing is going to change until we restructure society into something more sensible and sustainable - something based on Earth Care and People Care perhaps?
something based on human care then earth care, still not putting humans first hey, hedge around what's need to be done. so you otherwise wisen one show us this new society in action before we feel the pain. you green people shut down coal fired power and polluting industry, can't you see you will create a new level of poor in australia, can't compare other nations poor so much to what people NEED to live here in aus' in some semblance o dignity. is more and more families forced to sleep out under the stars what you want? the people up caboolture way the i'm all right jackers did not want poor people sleeping out in teh show grounds so they petitioned council to get rid of them, sweep the unwanted away hey? great humanity. the only difficulty so far is starting with the right ethics. more sensible and sustainable to me means families living in modest homes on say nothing less than 700sq/m blocks so the kids can play in the yard, they can have a mango, some chooks and vege' gardens, without that the poor will be left little opportunity to live simply. len
I don't think people will transition easily. I fear it will need a crisis of some sort to bring a change in the minds and hearts of most. People like the convenience of modern life and are not prepared to forego that. I was with a group of young people just after the floods here in Queensland and I happened to ask if any were prepared with food, water, alternate cooking sources etc in case we should ever be without communication or electricity for any length of time. Not one of them had even considered preparing for any such scenario. It'll be right mate is the attitude. I asked what they would do if it happened and after a bit of silence, one young man said, "oh I would just steal what I needed if it came to that". They all seemed to agree. After I was shocked mute for a while, I suggested that there might not be any left to steal. Wouldn't it be easier to prepare yourself for an emergency? Or learn how to live with less? Nah, I was called negative and a pessimist to even suggest such a thing. In this society of instant gratification, even getting people to think about transitioning to a less consumptive society is a task on its own.
Sadly, annette, I completely agree. There will be small groups of people like those perhaps on this forum who are making a start but the vast majority are going to either fight change to the end or bury themselves in apathy.
On the other hand, I totally disagree, because I see people transitioning, including an exploding interest in permaculture, even the trend toward "prepping" for disasters. So I guess it depends on one's perspective.
they aren't transitioning around here mate, forced transition is like slavery your responsibility for your own living is taken away and you get sued to prop up those fat cats. prepping for disaster you say? how? i say anything you store or stockpile like that young man said to annette, they WILL take it from you and you may still be breathing after the event, like in south africa it already happens, and once the word gets around others will come pillage what you have rape your women. the mythology reigner says they can take what they like so long as they don't take from the church, it is no crime to covet. those with head in clouds and no humanity keep pushing we are not that far away, and you will not be allowed to defend yourself, so get over that one, crimes against the state bring a slow gory death sentence, even should you recant. all those mythology cultures have failed died out their god's did nothing for them, they dealt in cruelty just the way we now head, what goes round - comes round in history hey, we never learn from past errors. i want the freedom to walk down the street without fear of my head being used as a baseball, wonderful sport hey? humanity 1st for humanities sake len
Well I'm sure there are some people that are interested in transitioning, but I can only relate what I have seen on the ground. There's lots on the web and on forums, but I don't see many food gardens around where I live. Lots of solar power because it was heavily subsidised at one point. But even visiting those with solar, very rarely do you see anything edible growing in a garden. You're lucky Ludi that others around you are interested in permaculture and being prepared. I forgot to add that in the conversation I had with the younguns, they went on to say that they would probably end up at my place if the SHTF. At the moment we will all starve to death as i have no way got things sorted here to be able to feed others. Still lots of work to do to even get close. Scary........
I don't think it's about perspective, I think it depends on where you live and the demographic you're in. 95% of people in my very large agricultural region I would hazard wouldn't have the faintest clue what permaculture is and if they did I suspect only another small percentage would embrace it. I am not sure that overall there is more interest and uptake of permaculture practices (globally) or whether the exchange of information is just much, much better. I hope it' mostly the former; we just need an exponential increase in numbers!
my experience not well received here, is that very many say "permacutlure" what's that, others have premonitions of the nimbin days of wearing tea cosies and clothes of many colours all tiptoeing through the weed. see them around all being seen to be different in manner not attracting people. perma'c lost the plot when those who wanted to sell it killed off the goose that may have laid a golden egg. the way i see people will not join the myth based following, i have influenced about 5 or 6 since being here, we are still sharing good loam, we shared oodles of seedlings, we shared oodles of produce, we judge no one, our aim to at least be good neighbours i think we are succeeding. and what do i get here judging others wanting to be spell checkers and grammar teachers, i read very many messaged world wide have done for 15 years never ever got holier than though and critised others for grammar or typo's. we have a life. in truth PC has lost any plot it may have had. of course those with ego's and making money won't agree. some objectivity is needed len
The entire human race can not be saved no matter what we do. Poor people only have to suffer first if they accept current society and still think they can use up all the resources at a stupendous rate. Education, in one form or another, is what people need. Whining and complaining about a problem doesn't solve the problem, because if it did, government would actually perform a function. We can already see that government won't solve this problem because they couldn't even fix the economic crisis and that hurt them in their most vulnerable place: Swiss Bank Accounts. It's pointless to wait for the next catastrophe and then start whining about how bad you have it and wringing your hands. If you can't take control of your own life, nobody can. Education is the key. Not more money, not more benefits, not more social programs, not more complaining about other people and what they have. Education. Period. There are numerous methods to empower your life and I've chosen Permaculture. None of them are instant gratification.
That is why I think building cohesive strong communities are one of the most pressing aspects of permaculture's role in the 'transition'. A really strong community will give us a certain buffer against raiding parties - at the very least we won't be fighting from within. Similarly, I think that presses home the need for really well constructed food forests and perennial systems. As Geoff talks about in 'Preparing for the coming crisis', people will come and take your annual crops, they will take all your animals but they are going to be less interested in a food forest. I summarise but you get the point. But I'm happy to hear about your implementable (is that a real word?) ideas for how we can reshape society towards caring for People in better ways Len. And I don't just mean what it should be like, but what we can actually DO, what is your road map? We all have the theory but what we clearly lack enough of are 'Road Maps'. I think that is what we should be seriously discussing here in this forum. What is the way forward out of this quagmire of inhumanity, greed and destruction? That is why I found Crazyideas ideas so compelling - because he was discussing a plan of action.
you mean the poor have a choice of where they can live eat and be happy? i think not unmutual. education yes but there again it has to be affordable for all, i am no rocket scientist like many others, i failed miserably grade 8 scholarship(that was last year at primary school where we used slates so parents did not need to supply pads), then went to sub-junior(grade9) failed all the way through no sense in burdening a slow learner with 8 subjects) to do 1st term junior(grade10), at which stage 15(was kept back in grade 3 waste of time for those who suffered), so father put me behind the wheel of FJ ute full of mowers at 15 no license to mow his lawns while he drove cab and worked as orderly. no money came my way then at 17 they shanghaied me into the navy which failed was out in 12 months, but i pulled me socks up hardly spent any time on the dole over 50 years (yes it is necessary or people would need to sleep on the street) worked my way up among tertiary people seeking advancement beat them at their own game and succeeded it cost my health, but! worked with many of our aboriginal people new guinean's who had made the choice to grab the education on offer, one even took my supervisor position when i transferred out, so yes if people have the drive they can achieve. len
Hi Grahame I have thought some about this. I'm thinking those that have a fair bit of land could divide it up for others, maybe charge a little rent for it, and work out a plan for who grows what and who does what. All working together to provide for others. Each have their privacy but goal to share and protect each other. Local and state laws prevent this from happening in a legal sense but can be done in an out of sight way. That video from Geoff got me thinking too. Grow unusual and not so commonly known plants as well. I have prickly pear which you can eat but it is not likely to be nicked. Even moringa and pidgeon pea are not commonly known as food sources outside of permaculture.:nod:
grahame, gorilla gardening comes to mind but how to find a suitably concealed are to go throw seeds around and plant th odd food tree? big question, need some availability to water especially around here set at least a 1st bivouac point then decide if moving on is on the cards, we have no idea close enough to be able to sneek to on foot walking not easy for us nor climbing rocky tores, would that preclude us in teh eyes of others to a modicum of safety and food, let alone shelter. is that being a whinge? or letting others know? ludi, that is the american way hey, won't be allowed to work. len
A couple of interesting stories in the regional paper today regarding energy. 'Dairy Disaster' 200 dairy farmers in 'crisis' held a large meeting in Mt. Gambier to talk about the problems the industry is facing. They claimed that increasing feed costs, low milk prices (supermarket war) and the carbon tax had created the 'perfect storm' for the industry. Farmers claimed the carbon tax had pushed their electricity costs up by more than 14%. It was stated that ''removal of the carbon tax was necessary for the industry to survive'. 'Gone with the Wind' Wind farm development scrapped. The proposed 46 turbine wind farm at Allendale East will not proceed. Acciona (developer) says the wind farm is 'not commercially viable'. However, the decision comes after a farmer won an appeal in the Env. Resources and Development Court against the approval of the project. The landmark court ruling halted the project based on visual amenity. Subsequently, changes to the state's Wind Farm Development Plan Amendment made it possible for a new application to be lodged. However the developer then decided not to proceed.
Very sad for the farmers. The article below from the ABC highlights that consumers may be paying twice for the carbon tax while the big polluters make big profits out of the carbon tax compensation package. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02-20/consumers-paying-twice-as-carbon-emitters-compensated/4529268
