well aware of that site 'ludi' visit it and contribute from time to time got told what username we had to use, but that's life hey there are those that do and those that don't len
I will not even click links to that place anymore. I find it to be a disservice to humanity beyond the scope of this discussion.
Going back to solar, etc, uses.... German solar power plants produced a world record 22 gigawatts of electricity per hour - equal to 20 nuclear power stations at full capacity Reuters - https://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/26/us-climate-germany-solar-idUSBRE84P0FI20120526 Humanity, at large, has been hoodwinked, both in print media, and the idiot box, as to what we are all capable of.
paka, that is an amazing output, now the variables, rainy cloudy days and night time, how do they harness the power to use it on demand?? and is it efficient and affordable for all? might be equal to those power stations but is it ready for use and versatile 24/7. in all weather including winter. forgot can the power sellers count on it? like can they reliably get the power so plan to cut other production or do they simply have excess? len
Germany took notice of the problems Japan had with reactors. If you read the article, it says that the solar panels can provide 20% of Germany's demand annually and nearly 50% per day at peak. They use a power grid system, so they're forced to work with it accordingly. As far as consumer cost, politics are blocking it from being cheaper than 20 cents per kW/h.
Cloudy days and night time are no problem for the big systems I have seen discussed by a presenter at a Permie meeting. They use molten salt as the heat store. So the sun heats the salt to super high temperatures, this is kept in insulated vats that hold the heat for ages, and then when there is demand for electricity water is heated by the salt and used to run steam turbines - just the same as the ones that use coal to heat the water. Which makes it easy to retro fit the system to coal based electricity plants. The system has a proper name - which escapes me at this point in time.....
Is it this one, eco? https://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=how-to-use-solar-energy-at-night
wow what dreams are made of 'eco' must be an expensive system to set up, may take decade upon decade to repay itself, with servicing ongoing and obsolescence. 20d a k/w hour that is cheaper than we pay now so why are our renewables so expensive, greed i'd suspect. so 2 factors you need a huge solar collector to heat up salt/supply power, then you need a steam turbine power plant to take this super (i guess) heated salt and boil water. lot of energy there somewhere and it all wears out and needs service. anyway suppose sounds ideal hey like living on a deserted island, so when it comes our way let us all know i'd buy power at 20c a k/w hour, i think then i'm no mathematician. oh! bit of a puzzler, it only provides 50% of their peek power through each day, it can provide 20% of germany's demand annually, ok? so where do they find the extra energy needed to heat up salt? surely it would need to provide 100% of power? len
Yup that's the sort of thing Ludi. Len this is what the article says about costs - Two things leap out at me from that - 1. if conventional electricity prices go up then solar becomes more affordable - and there's every reason to believe that conventional energy prices will go up. And we'll need conventional energy to do the building so now is the time to do it. 2. no one is taking the environmental costs of burning fossil fuels into the price calculation of conventional energy. I reckon if they did (e.g. health costs associated with pollution) then solar would be cheap by comparison.
And I meant to add that I still think the only real way forward is for all of us (not just us permies but Mr and Mrs Average too) to use less electricity. I'm constantly amazed talking to other people about how they think that a quarterly power bill one $1000 is acceptable! My last one was $150 and I'm not living like a hermit.
One thing I am thinking of regarding cost of living, power etc. is that at the large (800/day) abattoir here they use tens of thousands of dollars of power every quarter (my SO works for them and has seen their account) but they are only paying something like 7 or 8 cents per thingy instead of the 31 cents I'm paying. If they had to pay closer to retail power costs meat would be much more expensive than it already is. (I am vego so it doesn't affect me directly) But how much other stuff are we consuming that is being made using undervalued electricity?
of course 'eco' if the artificially inflate the cost of coal generated power(the only power the poor can afford or they have none), which is what is occurring then at sometime renewable's will look that is LOOK affordable, but very many by then will not be able to afford to use power, coal fired power stations won't be adding the health woes of the nation anymore than what all the vehicles and jets are doing, so then what. you get your wish for coal to be shut down, power to be so expensive only those with some wealth can afford it, and all manufacturing forced off shore with massive loss of jobs, so mass unemployment, lots of families with nowhere to live, no water along with no power and little food. going to be one hell of a country hey? look to africa, east/west central and south(home invasions like off this planet), is that really what people want for australia? do you have any idea what the world powers have install for us masses? this is the mythology worship way of things, the religious leader who would control the world already says covetnous should not be a crime, if you have something that someone else needs to improve their life then they should be able to simply take it; your wife; daughter; sons; animals; whatever, so long as they don't take from the church that will be a crime. this green movement thing has no idea of reality. anyhow good luck for the future you seek. like the garden gnome said after he knelt and swore allegiance to the presidency, if we want US dollar help the pres' says we must go nuclear to bolster their nuclear industry. so reckon we may see nuclear power before renewables because nuclear is cheaper than renewables, but dearer than good old coal. you won't be able to afford your vege's either unless you can grow your own, that may be you looked after but what about the rest of the community? what you have they will want, by force. len
Len has a valid point. Something being cheaper in comparison to something else is not the same thing as being affordable.
I dunno Len, I'm just not getting the logic in what you are saying. Perhaps I am missing something... Some of the assumptions I am working on to form my world view include. 1. Fossil fuels are finite and becoming increasingly more difficult and expensive to extract. 2. The current structure (and standard of living) of our society is based on and dependant on these fossil fuels. 3. If you can afford the cost of coal-generated power you are not among the worlds poor. There are a few others but perhaps you could start with those and let me know where I might have some wrong thinking.
Graham, looks like you are of course spot on there. The thing as I see it is: *We (human population) have to transition from a carbon based economic model to a totally different model - economic or otherwise - if the human race is to survive into the future. No brainer. *In doing so, we need to find solutions which allow the worlds poorest a better standard of living than they have now, whilst the world wealthiest scale back consumption of resources to a sustainable level. Problem: what is a sustainable level? Problem: what are the practical models we have to transition the urbanised populations of the world to a more sustainable way of life? What do a few billion people do for employment in a somewhat de-industrialised world? Problem: how to sell the idea of a much lower living standard to the 2 billion (think China and India for example) who are currently clawing their way up the ladder in aspiration of achieving our first world standard of living? I can't put words in Len's mouth, but it seems to me that Len is very worried about how we transition people here on very low incomes, those not able to do for themselves, or those whose livelihood is tied to certain jobs, to the more sustainable way of living we are talking about. It is too facile to say we are all wealthy compared to some poor bastard in Haiti or Guatemala or Chad so stop complaining and do something. We each work and live within the system we find ourselves in. Permaculturists need to be compassionate about everyone in society and work towards how to find solutions for all and help get them to that point. If this energy cost issue further divides people (the haves/have nots and the eco warriors/eco abusers) based on their ability to pay, maybe it is really not a very well thought out solution at all?
It really is a concern MITH, how this thing is going to pan out especially for the 'have nots'. I think the sooner we get onto the transition, the easier it will go.
you can either work it out or you can't grahame, fossill fuel/coal is not getting more expensive naturally if is greed and manipulation inflating the value. the chinese, indians and japanese want our coal even if when we stop using it we will still mine it as our economy is based on coal mining especially NSW & Qld. those asian countries of course do not want to crash their economies and make things worse for their poorer classes, they are also not silly enough to get caught up in this CO2 mumbo jumbo, the more expensive power gets the harder life gets for the poorer ones. now it ok to talk about transitioning to something else, well lets do it sensibly have a plan of what it is we are transitioning to, ok most of you believe supper expensive renewables are the answer, you would get far more support than clicky support if there was a renewable system that was affordable for us to switch over to, but no there is nothing, there is nothing to point to, over here that is. does it make sense not to use our own coal and let others benefit? i mean also if you want to be tough and tread on the poorer classes why not shut coal mining down when the last coal fired turbine stops? like all the big talk about transition towns hey, it has all but flopped sounded good but had nowhere to go. all the majority of us who have no influence want to do is get by at the minimum standard required in australia, while the wealth bureaucrats plunder on, we've got our quarterly power bill to around $200 dollars but the tighter you pull your belt the more we get whipped. while the want to be's treat the planet like their personnel oyster, and feed high on the lamb. all that is visible is an ever diminishing humanity to man. the yanks aren't even doing what we are doing. len
Yes it is true in Queensland anyway. When there was a drought, the call was for everyone to reduce water consumption. No problem, everyone did their bit and water consumption went way down. Then what happens, they increase the prices so that you consume half but pay more. Same with electricity, we all reduce our consumption but they increase prices to make it up. Don't get me wrong, we need to reduce our consumption, but it is the deceitfulness that is so unacceptable. It will get to a tipping point where no matter what you do, essential services will be too expensive for the poor to pay. I have always maintained that essential services should not be a commercial concern but a public service. Meanwhile the inequity carries on..............Public services seems to becoming a dirty word in this economic rationalist mentality.
