Two different wind turbines

Discussion in 'Designing, building, making and powering your life' started by Matis, Sep 16, 2013.

  1. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    Len, with all due respect, we would not even need to have this conversation if the above were not so patently obvious. Cheerio, Markos
     
  2. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    anyway mark before i cop a lifetime sin bin, the only painfully obvious is a total lack of humanity to fellow australian's, and others of the world, who are the underfoot downtrodden of the elitist educated classes.

    ok grahame, adding to the waffle, the poor need: food, housing, power, water, medicine, dental and transport, how does your theory cope with that reality. won't say basics as the inhumane say basics are a luxury, deserving only to the inhumane, hasn't the world slipped.

    len
     
  3. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    Take care, Len. You know where to find us if ever you would like to explore the concept of building an IC. Kind regards, Mark
     
  4. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    G'day Matis: I'm personally very sorry that for the greater part your thread has been hijacked, and I trust that at least some of the links posted are on topic and of interest to you. Keep up the great work, the world needs more people with your vision and passion! Cheerio, Markos.
     
  5. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

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    Yep everybody needs those things to varying degrees Len. Unfortunately food, housing, power, water, medicine, dental and transport are all intricately reliant on fossil fuel energy. It has been cheap energy that has allowed us to multiply and spread out so readily in the last few years. Now that cheap energy is coming to an end (as discussed in my previous post). All of those things will become increasingly more expensive from now on. Again I emphasise that this is regardless of any environmental concerns (all of which compound the effects). If we burn the fossil fuels dirty enough and quick enough however, the lack of energy maybe become a moot point.

    All of the industry (burning polluting coal, chemical farming etc) is doing obvious damage to our waterways, land and air - even if you place climate change to the side. This in turn decreases the availability of fresh water, clean air and quality food. Which in turn drives the cost of all of these things up further than just the rising energy costs. Poor quality food and water leads to a greater strain on public health system which as you already observe are under severe stress. This leads to the need for more medicines, which are heavily reliant on oil as previously discussed. There are feedback loops upon feedback loops. This whole system is based on easily obtained cheap and dirty fuels. When the cheap and dirty fuels are exhausted or at the very least no longer easy and cheap to get the WHOLE system fails. This is what we are all talking about. The failure of this industrial-economic system.

    That is why you can't have decent medical and dental and the other things all at the same time. It is why a large portion of the world don't have more than one or two of any of those things (the truly poor). It is why we have to change governments every so often - because no government can deliver all of those things at the levels that people expect them. This is what I talk about when I say there are no electorally palatable solutions.

    I'm sorry Len, but no matter what, we will never have cheap energy from the corporate grid ever again (and thus cheap dental, medical, water etc). Those days are gone, burnt away, up the smoke stack. But what we could do if we (as a society) are willing to take a hit to our 'standard of living' is use what energy we do have left to come up with some viable options for the future. Because if we fritter away the last of this reasonably cheap energy there will be no options left. We are more likely to end up back in caves that way than with any of the greens suggestions.

    Here in this room many of us are talking about a transition, rather than a total collapse. Either way it is coming. Which would you prefer to see? Which do you think is the more humane?
     
  6. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

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    I'm sorry too Matis. The things I have spoken about above are some of the important reasons why a variety of new energy options are so important to us. Wind is going to be a major part of that I believe. Particularly systems that are simple, with easily replaceable components.
     
  7. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    yes mark and grahame highjacked your thread,

    i for one would never deal with that one company. anyway still only affordable for no less than the plastic wealthy yuppie set, the rich don't want it they can afford to buy air.

    we need new power yesterday no good waiting for more theories like the theory of supply and demand and the climate and oil running out, you can't change that grahame, what you and grasshopper are promoting is inhumane, you want people to suffer to suit your once upon a time world. much too late for supply and demand issues the people are already here.

    what you might explain is how housing should be supplied in some degree and food and health and water all in some degree, boy no care for the poor in there hey, but some others are OK jack that makes it all alright.

    nearly forgot where is this obvious damage to water ways etc.,. that you mention? oh! and more grahame, so our teeth rot out of our heads and we die slow deaths at home out of sight and mind of you thinkers.

    len
     
  8. Matis

    Matis Junior Member

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    It's ok it is an interessting discussion :)
     
  9. Dzionik

    Dzionik Junior Member

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    Despite your signature you're nevertheless a bitter man Len.
    Philanthropist who has problems with your teeth, think of the millions of dead in the last fifty years as a result of wars for oil.
    Are you really man with "With peace and brightest of blessings"?

    You are right Matis, I am unfortunately drawn into the debate I do not like.
     
  10. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Senior Member

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    If anything this threads derailment proves why the obvious answers, aren't going to be politically palatable or easily implemented as the frenzy of those opposing change is loud, irrational and relentless.
     
  11. mouseinthehouse

    mouseinthehouse Junior Member

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    I am currently reading 'The Five Stages of Collapse - Survivor's Toolkit' by well known thinker and blogger Dmitry Orlov. It makes for sober reading. However I am also finding it liberating. Not in the sense of 'the world's screwed, let's live it up while we can' sort of liberated, but more the 'I am starting to understand and become reconciled to Industrial Civilisation collapsing, now I can plan on how to live through it' sort of liberated. The fact is ALL the great civilisations have and will collapse and their rise and fall all have commonalities. Ours will be no different other than it will be on a global rather than regional scale. As Grahame is trying to point out, a lot of this discussion around power supplies and the angst of what medical and dental care etc will/will not be available to the masses will be a moot point. There will be no government provided anything eventually. Population will fall dramatically and power will devolve to small communities to run their own very basic but essential affairs. Whether I live to see it is arguable and depends entirely on how long the global financial house of cards stays aloft coupled with the intensity of climate change. My sons and any children they may have will definitely be faced with a very challenging world either in transition or post transition. Those who plan for transition, particularly strong small communities, will be the best placed to go forward with the least suffering. Those who refuse to acknowledge it is coming will be the most vulnerable regardless of economic status for economic status will count for nowt. My plan is to continue to develop our property here as a place that my extended family can live self sufficiently in the medium to long term.
     
  12. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

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    Thanks Len, I'm glad you can see the point I am trying to make and it's nice that we can agree on things. You maybe right - it could well be too late. The future (and as you point out the present for some) is looking pretty bleak isn't it. Perhaps this new government has some good ideas on how we can ensure a clean healthy future for us, our children, and grandchildren.

    Oh, and on the water thing, I don't know what the waterways are like up in your neck of the woods, but you could come and visit any of the waterways in Victoria and get the picture pretty quickly - and compared to a lot of overseas rivers, we have it pretty good!

    That book sounds interesting MITH. I might see if the library has a copy or get them to order it for me. Cheers
     
  13. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    i may see your point or i may not but to me thinking of treating humans cruelly is abhorrent.

    not sure what issues you are talking about down vic way? but the murray darling system was messed up by greedy pollies and irrigators, what you need to get into practice with is called cause and effect, and when you make effect cause you get it wrong always, look at climate science,

    mans inhumanity to man on show right here.

    len
     
  14. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Senior Member

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    It certainly is
    The greedy making a short term profit, with no concern for the effects on the environment or future generations is the most inhumane act of all.
    If your not part of the solution your part of the problem.
    Ignorance is no excuse.
     
  15. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    you a bit of a swing voter grasshopper, hunt with hounds when it suits and run with the foxes as it suits.

    it's all about the greedy supported by many here as to have political ambitions means you need the funds of the greedy to get anywhere.

    but no here they blame the poor who simply want to be able to live modestly, the poor who have no voice in public, like around here the habitat has been ruined so the greedy could get even more greedy, and when the poor of the bush, wildlife(same as people) get hungry and refuse to simply die, they raid gardens to achieve a skimpy life, and gardeners extract a cruel justice on these critter who only have a false voice, just like poor humans who have no voice. black cockatoo's, king parrots, galah's the list is endless all receive rough justice like you see here doled out to the poor make the poor the cause for all ills, wait until they become the poor. be a hue and cry then.

    you judge me ignorant someone else judged me sad or whatever those judgement belong to the one's who applied them that is their merits, they offer no humane answers or solutions.

    we fence out the roo's and wallabies they do well on all the vacant grass land around, we encourage all birds even those who are now labelled the worst, we are still in the process of buying habitat shrub trees, we grow all sorts of weeds this all for now provides food, a big lantana growth has been removed so now no red wren's, we provide food for the birds we preserve every gooseberry that pops up, if we provide this sort of stuff maybe we won't have to share too many tomatoes with the king parrots, but at least we care enough to feed them, not that sort of care here for looking after lowly human's, we did this last time on our property and about doubled the amount of bird species, that were there, already here now we have attracted birds, long way to go yet it all costs money and energy all short on.

    we also help and share with human's

    gain maturity stop judging others by your own merits, stop ramming theories down the throats of the poor, show some human values not driven by power and corruption.

    len
     
  16. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    It's not, but it is close.

    2 degrees Centigrade will screw the planet for humans.

    We can only handle around 2 gigtons more of C02 pollutants

    We have over 5 gigatons still in the ground.

    Those are literally the facts that even the USA has recognized and signed to help stop, 2 degrees centigrade or it is LITERALLY all over.
     
  17. Xio

    Xio Junior Member

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    2 degrees Centigrade will screw the planet for humans.


    I admit ignorance about many things so I'd like to see the science as detailed by 'real' scientists & not the greens.
     
  18. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    the only thing xio?

    they have a figure drawn from the lucky dip, but they have absolutely no evidence, only theory and mathematical calculations.

    still does not excuse their desire to make the indefensible suffer at their pleasure. i keep hearing there has been no temp' change for 15 years now, so maybe some honesty might help their cause.

    green is now a bad colour used to indicate we had good rain or successful gardens.

    len
     
  19. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

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  20. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Senior Member

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    Im assuming these are the figure you use from the astro turfing web sites that the majority of peer reviewed scientists dont agree with?
    Nothing will make the indefensible suffer more than the greedy lying about climate change and demanding polluting should be free.
    Lets not confuse it with the green of Astro turfing.
     

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