Two different wind turbines

well one thing you get stuck in a rut apparently, no humans before environment, not the corporate and yuppie political driven greedy humans, but the lower echelon human's, those who suffer at the hands of the haughty.

so on the power side any lower down's who can afford a roof over their heads then don't get the right to afford power and food etc.,. count it all in. the poor don't want a 1st world driven lifestyle they want basics. their lust if they have one is to get from day to day.

len

 

Modern lust is ok if we re label it "basics" ?

 

Len, here's a challenge for you: Try not eating for a couple of months, or not drinking water for a couple of weeks, or not breathing for a couple of hours, and then see if you can still claim 'the environment can't come before humanity'. Cheerio, Markos

 

Markos! Hanblecheyapa? Really? Most humans aren't ready for that.

 

Meanwhile, back on topic.. sort of.


https://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-Wind-Turbine/

I built the cardboard one and it worked great.

 

common mark that is a bit inept, doing what you said if possible would prove nothing, even in the unspoilt wild we would need to eat, drink and breathe, those things are par for the course, even animals do it.

we need to get back to looking after people, not the powerful and greedy manipulators, put any qualms you have squarely at their feet. they're already enjoying life at our expense, tax them to the hilt, instead of further punishing the less fortunate. with that sort of thought there will never be that unity you seek.

at long last got a one line reply from that windy company a bit long winded coming, but in short they said nothing more than they don't have domestic units available and are very short on tech help like how many units one might need. not a very informative company to say the least.

if our community was more supportive of each other we might have renewable at high population level, like in the north east of scotland(i think, saw a doco many years ago), where they have no grid power and little more than simple homes on a windy knoll, they have chap about town makes their windies for them out of truck and bus gen's/alternators. aussie standard the fell good haves won't share with the masses of have not's.

anyhow whilst we struggle to pay artificially inflated power, fuel and food prices, got no hope of even buying the smallest amount of renewable's can't even as yet(haven't had time to really look) get any info on an affordable rocket stove.

len

 

Len, I built an outdoor cooking rocket stove out of about 15 or so bricks we had lying around and the back off an old dead computer from instructions I found in Grass Roots magazine. It is basic but it works a treat and it took me about 25 minutes in total. It doesn't have mortar or any other fixings so it is not 100% efficient but last winter and spring I used it a lot with the twigs and sticks we have all over the place. This year not so much yet as its been too wet. You don't need to buy anything costly.

 

I agree with you on food, but power and fuel is artificially deflated not inflated.
If the true cost included scarcity, environmental damage and the US Military costs to prop up compliant regimes and blow up non compliant ones. Then include all the subsidised infrastructure.
Petrol is cheaper than Orange Juice per litre and it grows on trees.

 

We are merely 'animals', Len. There is no such thing as an 'unspoilt wild' on Earth, humans have desecrated every last bit of wilderness on the planet. Modern humans have contributed to species decline, both flora and fauna, to the extent that we ourselves are now at risk of being wiped out. We take for granted the soil that grows the bulk of our food, the oceans that produce the bulk of our fresh water, and the forests that give us the breath of life through photosynthesis, all at our own peril. Human induced climate change is real, and it's altering the planet really fast. You and I may not live to see the coming wars over water, and the ensuing mass famine, disease, death and destruction that will surely follow, but our grandchildren will. It is up to us, our generations to make the change, so that that the generations of animal species (including humans) that follow can simply survive.

There can be no disputing your cries of 'looking after people', it's one of the three ethics of permaculture. The first and best way we can achieve this outcome, is to provide all people on the planet with the opportunity to participate in universal, free and secular education. Indeed, it's the only way we can stave of the worst effects of the coming wars.

If you had read all of the information available at the website of the company you have been so disparaging of recently, you would have noticed the following disclaimer:

'Commercial' interests come before 'residential' in all new forms of technology; it is the only way companies can afford their R and D regimes. But, and as we have seen with solar products, when the economies of scale are right, the end domestic user is usually the winner.

As for build-your-own energy production devices: The link I previously provided to the CSIRO products page concerned with 'energy', reveals a plethora of titles concerned with the subject. Many, I'm sure, would be available from your local/bioregional library.

I am genuinely sorry that you are increasingly unable to afford 'power, fuel and food'. You are not alone, and it is only going to get a lot worse for a lot more people very quickly under the present system of governance. In a communitarian anarchist society, access to 'power, fuel and food' (essentially, 'energy') is considered a right and not a privilege. As such, people such as yourself who have bought into an unaffordable dream, can find reprieve from ever-increasing costs of energy distribution to extremely low-density, peri-rural residential enclaves, by banding together in intentional communities (ICs) and sharing their expenses. I know you have stated before that living in an IC not an option for you, for whatever reason, but it certainly is one way out of your dilemma and as such might be worthwhile reconsidering.

In closing, we would be happy to provide you and any group of people you would care to muster to explore this above alternative with initial free advice, and with any follow up advice at the lower end of our pricing spectrum (as we do with all genuine IC enquiries).

Kind regards, Markos and the team at MRC Planning

 

Sad thing is we are currently at the highest standard of living in economic terms than we have ever been.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/30/household-bills-australia-wages-rising

The cost of living lie has been peddled hard by astro turfers before the election and swallowed.

The great political quote prior to the election was "I know people doing it tough on $200 thousand a year."

Its obvious the conservative sides of politics are exponential growth, no wind farms, BAU, fossil fuel,cheap polluting, roads for the 21st century,no green tape.

There's no better way to guarantee cost of living pressures will increase than rely on the old model that was based.



PS
cant edit my quote above ist should read Petrol is cheaper than orange juice.

 

Done

 

Me too!

I use it for my wok, which cooks a lot faster and healthier then most ways. Talk about efficient!

 

yuo got some sort of plan, i got no idea.

as for mark and grasshopper, you lost me in your fog of ideas. i did not set the standard of living me and the very many just try to exist whilst the egg head yuppie types float along thinking every body is capable of reeking their damage in the mad use of resources, but whilst you both think like that nothing of benefit will move forward, tomes of sentences and likening humans living in towns to animals draws no parallel. so mark as i sadly had to say before your idea dream has nowhere to go as you continually make sure there never will be any common ground, so lets not go the waffle way, and do our best individually.

how silly one would put forward that power and fuel are artificially deflated?? try buying the stuff with no money, sounds like greens waffle.

len

 

Ah well, I thought I'd give it a shot. But seriously, Len, if you ever wanted to get together with like minded people and build an intentional community (complete with community owned and operated sources of renewable energy), the offer to help you plan for such an outcome will always remain open. Cheerio, Markos

 

sorry mark the like minds you mention only mean more of the same, from what i hear from you and grasshopper, grasshopper says no one merits and necessities that is just another name for lust needs. can't ever see your intentional or even unintentional community getting off the ground you seem to lack the ability to encourage chatting from the ground up, i have no doubt we will get a community we didn't ask for and you will accept, it's all happened before, and in history what goes round comes round, just like earth round.

that sort of help no one needs.

len

 

No, Len, it is I that should be sorry, for it seems I have confused you. I was merely suggesting that if you ever wanted to get together with like (you) minded people, and build an intentional community (IC) - perhaps a community of biblical scholar/gardeners? - then I'd be only too happy to help you with the planning process. You and I are like-minded about some things, Len, but very unlike-minded about others. That's OK; diversity is a good thing. But I don't think our like mindedness could ever overcome our unlike mindedness enough to allow us to live together in harmony in an IC. However, you have mentioned on numerous previous occasions that there are thousands around the world who think just like you, and as such my suggestion merely is that you band up with these very same people and build an IC. This way you would not have to bear the burden of ever-increasing energy costs alone. Indeed, you could afford - through economies of scale and by forming a cooperative - to build your own renewable energy plant, and perhaps you could even produce enough energy to sell your surplus back into the grid. Just an idea, Len. Cheerio, Markos

Further reading:

https://www.newsociety.com/Books/S/The-Senior-Cohousing-Handbook-2nd-Edition

https://www.routledge.com/books/details/9780415375764/

https://www.newsociety.com/Books/F/Finding-Community

https://www.newsociety.com/Books/E/Ecovillages

https://www.newsociety.com/Books/C/Creating-Cohousing

 

mark qwithout reading much of teh above, you and me at least were in early discussion, but you sullied the playing field, you cannot build any sort of community unless people ahve a like mind to follow more gentle ethics like me and my family and those like us around teh wrold do, we are teh ones very likely to be their and offer assistance, share food, not pursue that little old lady who backs into our car, not covet, rob, rape people or teh planet. when it looked like we where getting to a starting point you pulled out and regrouped now you offer the same again, the above is where we started. i think one of my last questions was and i need it in your terms simply where is this free secular education happening? i'll ask another in your simple response please where is this intentional communty working at town level let alone state level.

ok mark, i know me and mine and those i know would love a safe caring tollerant society with a goal. no bigotry no prejudices nothing but peace and harmony, humans can do it.

i won't read your links, i've told you that before, i supply my answers in my style.

len

 

The environment and our grand children will pay the real price for our greedy idiocy in pursuit of modern lusts.

Power wont get cheaper if we do nothing while more people need more resources in pursuit of their "needs".
Its called supply and demand and supply isnt growing anywhere near as fast as demand is.
Subsidising energy/food bites countries on the bum, when the revenue required to do so dries up and peoples expectations can no longer be met.

The simple truth of the maths of exponential growth with finite resources doesn't add up = green waffle then Im all for it.

If you can explain how power will get cheaper by doing nothing Len please enlighten us.

 

maybe your greedy idiocity grasshopper, we are neither greedy or imbiciles, and seeing you are experienced and idiotic recognitions it must be your merit. you would have the poor sitting in the gutter no shelter, food, or medicine, just so those you worship can prance by hey?

power is only getting dearer to subsidise those with panels on their rooves and allow now privatised power greedy co's to gouge us just like their cousins in the oil industry.

the only need we have is to live simply but instead with the help of those like you we get gouged into possible obscurity, why don't you put out a petition to get some genocide going get the blood lust out there, that would be better than the slow miserable ending you have install for many you have no knowledge of.

no good going anywhere with you as obviously you adore green and green waffle, you have very little humanity, in you.

no hope for the poor ever, guess you will impress here

len

 

Unfortunately Len, as a 'society' we are deeply embedded in system that is operated under Economic Theory. The current practice of this theory has been shown to be riddled with assumptions that just don't hold up in the real world. The major glaring one is Perpetual Growth. Perpetual growth is based on infinite sources of energy, particularly Oil. We now know that oil is getting more difficult, more dangerous and more expensive to extract from increasingly less pure and thus dirty sources.

As Economic Theory will tell us everything works on Supply and Demand (as Grasshopper pointed out). When Supply is limited and Demand is increasing exponentially then price goes up. That is the system we operate under. It is inevitable. It is what the major government parties base their entire philosophical outlook on. It underpins every single policy they have. This is something you simply cannot escape from whilst you live under this current system. It is inevitable (regardless of your views on Carbon Taxes, Wind Farms, Greenies etc). Energy will continue to cost you more and more.

What Grasshopper and many of us talk about here is a transition to an alternate system that is based more on Sustainability. We all agree that the cost of Sustainable and renewable energy is going to be higher in the short term. And it is only in this short term that we have the opportunity to position ourselves for a future where we can have some relatively affordable energy. If we do nothing and don't pursue renewables then you are right in the interim we will have lower energy costs. But that will come at the cost of having any semblance of affordable energy in the future. Our children may very well live in times where electricity supply is intermittent at best, available to the very privileged few and non-existent to many. This can ONLY be avoided if some new kind of energy is found. This is indisputable and undisputed as far as I understand.

All of that is separate to the untold pollution that is being spread across the land. What I am saying is, the whole pollution, Co2, climate change argument is IN ADDITION to the economic reality. Until one understands this one can mistakenly think that climate change has had any impact what so ever on ones energy bills. To imagine that the Carbon Tax is responsible for a single iota of direct energy price increase is a failure to understand the basics of Economics. If by some travesty, the carbon tax is repealed do you honestly think the price of energy will drop!? No. It will continue to increase and in the mean time the world will get smellier and dirtier.

If you think that people here don't give a toss about humans then you have completely failed to understand what they are talking about, it is the complete opposite, they are the only people I have met that have any semblance of understand the coming crisis', of the possible options available to us. They offer sound concepts, sound argument, sound ethics and sound reasoning. Most of them despair for humanity and for individuals both existing and in the future.

None of us are saying we have all the answers, none of us actually have enough optimism to think we can actually do it now or within a few years, many of us are realistic enough to see that most of this probably won't happen. But we are willing to have a go, willing to try NEW things, roll a few new thoughts around in our minds. Because if we don't, then no one will.

Talk of genocide is just childish and banal, like conservatives saying the Greens want us to go back and live in caves.

Honestly Len. Where I come from people with good ethics and all that jazz you say you have, when offer free help or advice say. "Thanks for that, I'll keep it in mind" or something like that. We don't spit in the persons face and tell them they have no idea what they are talking about. I don't even know children who do that.