Two different wind turbines

There's several ways we can look at it; it's all just a matter of scale (and time):

Do nothing, i.e. BAU. Estimated 'cost' to the end user - Earth (and all that sail upon her)!

We utilise the existing, centralised grid (and with all of the embodied energy it contains, we probably should, at least until it becomes obsolete in say the next 25-50 years) by simply (haha) converting all of the existing non-renewable stations to renewables, e.g. Zero Carbon Australia Stationary Energy Plan. Estimated 'cost' to the end user - $8 per household (extra) per week.

We de-centralise to bioregional-scale systems, e.g. Hepburn Wind, and my preferred, shorter-term option. Estimated 'cost' to the end user - $ Do your own math (our household: $300-a-quarter for 100% renewable).

We de-centralise further, to the individual neighbourhood/dwelling scale, and my preferred longer-term option e.g. CSIRO books on the subject. Estimated 'cost' to the end user - $ Do your own math.

As for the 'science' of human-induced climate change (and why we are even having this conversation), may I suggest:

https://theconsensusproject.com/

 

hello mark,

our av' bill between $150 and $180 per 1/4.

before we could pay 300 we'd be eating only what we can grow, no trips to shop or poor medical care, no mobile phone, and no community(wider) support.

centralised power uses power to transport power, and where do the storage batteries whatever get place, decentraly in local areas or centrally where the sun converter is? they have no effective affordable storage up and running, last time i was in front of molleson in a small crowd he favoured decentralised, i do too but hey high rise units are a poser hey? not to mention business and industry, have to forget about smelting and forging metal. even saw mills would be in doubt.

len

 

Does Germany not have any saw mills, business,industry or smelting?

 

G'day Len

Alexander (2013) Entropia: Life Beyond Industrial Civilisation

Kind regards, Markos

 

thanks mark,

again your link is someones idea of what might/could be, but right now and into our future i would say carries no weight to solve our now issues, let alone next years issues.

to keep the chat above the belt, we did not vote for any of the 3 red, blue and green, the ethic's of those who believe as we do are no risk to anyone, we don't rape, pillage or drive drunk or erratically, the way i see it if all followed ethics as we do then for 1 aus' would be a safer happier place.

and all of this does not excuse that windy company of being a slack business, and my experiences over the years is they are all tared with the same/similar brush. and we have already worked out here that all product components are too expensive.

len

 

It has them.

I would like to point out a lie being said by the media. It has been saying in many articles regarding Germany & other countries about infrastructure costs. BULLSHIT. The infrastructure is already there, what "infrastructure" cost the media means is IF the large monopolies switch to provide power which they won't. It is up to the individuals to purchase solar or wind or other power packages which then get hooked up to the electrical systems already in place.

For example, here we have an offshore wave generation device which has huge cables coming to the shore to then go out to the homes, etc. Well where do we hook up the cables to? We hooked them up to abandoned saw mills and other mills with minimal costs of infrastructure, more labor than anything else.

Stop thinking about the monopolies feeding you energy like you are hooked in a pod in a giant field a la the Matrix, make it for yourselves and BE FREE.

 

granted paka,

but you still won't point to what german's(those who maybe can afford it) pay per unit last count was around 36 cents per unit and all german's subsidise renewable's solar mostly to teh tune of 9 billion dollars a year, could be 90 billion, who's pockets does that come out of, and does germany look after it's people? australia doesn't, funny how all EU countries are suffering on the financial side and germany doesn't. germany bought in import tariffs to stop cheap solar panels coming into the country., don't stab in the dark, we here i believe are trying to find common ground. monopolies feed us every thing no country more manopolised than the US.

anyhow you do digress.

len

 

Sometimes Len, it looks like 'most people are selfish jerks'. Some people certainly are selfish jerks, but I reckon less than it looks like. It is because this sort of growth capitalism is a selfish jerk of a system. So it makes more people look like selfish jerks and in fact turns more people into selfish jerks. Even among all that, there are people who in their private life very caring and selfless individuals but when working within the system act like selfish jerks...

The problems we face are mostly about the selfish jerk system we live in and there are no palatable solutions to most people. The solutions some of us offer up to you here are unpalatable to you. The solutions the Greens offer up are clearly unpalatable to the majority of the people. The major political parties offer no solutions, therefore people are more comfortable with them. The high level of living standard we as a nation enjoy are directly as a result of and responsible for the dirty, polluting, selfish-jerk methods it employs.

The German government seems to be offering at least some solutions to a few of the problems and yet their economy is the strongest in the EU. Go figure...

 

you can count me out on the selfish jerk idea grahame,

i'm wanting to see all get looked after on a flat same for all thing, those who have wealth (mostly greedy should pay proper taxes, no loopholes).

anyhow germany and the Eu is a go figure hey lots of raised eyebrows about the place, but behind the german story we may never know.

how do their lower classes get on compared to here?

well i think mark may agree here but no political party will give us a fix.

len

 

Germany's 'success' with renewables is exaggerated.

https://theenergycollective.com/rob...wable-energy-germany-growing-slower-you-think

 

especially when the politics is hijacked by the astro turfers.

 

you don't give up do you grasshopper, well i suppose the mod's see what you do as ok, me that's another story, i don't know what you talk about and i have hijacked no gov' policies how could i, in anyone's wildest dreams.

so astro goodnight for now

len

 

https://www.independentaustralia.net/tag/astroturf-organisations/


https://thinkprogress.org/climate/2013/01/24/1493101/astroturf-wind-protest/

https://antinuclear.net/2012/07/27/...espite-one-small-astroturf-groups-opposition/

 

is that it grasshopper?

you have people like me pigeon holed, i am not an organisation and are not involved in such, and hey they mentioned rent a crowds on teh gone wrong link, yep did you not realise all those very public protests you see that verge on at least push and shove, are rent a crowds. have you ever attended with placard in tow?

i ahve never supported any waste of time protest of any sort.

anyhow i hope others notice you have all but gone off topic.

how low anyway to call others you don't like names: astro turfer's; deniers; skeptics etc.,. to each his own people are not follow along zombies after all. pigeon hole people for ones own ends.

len

 

Ye doth protest too much, methinks
Re read my posts none where directly aimed at you just the views you were expressing.
If it coos like a pigeon its probably a pigeon


This anti wind farm thing seems to be a Global BAU conservative policy to prop up the Fossil Fuel Industry
Here is a recent article about the UK conservatives.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/po...-are-living-in-stone-age-Ed-Davey-claims.html

 

i'm not protesting grasshopper, you are categorizing me into a pigeon home to protect your comfort zone. i follow no one, so by your own admission, you only think, and what you alone think then becomes important to all.

if they are not aimed at me then don't direct them in response to my posts there is no other you can point that gnarly finger at.

i'm not propping up anything so i can't figure your judgement there and i take a judgement on me because you are responding to me, i care not about propping anything but humanity up people deserve the right to affordable basics of living and life, many like yourself lose track of this. we down here did not set the cost of living standards we did not support yuppy-ism and it's greed., you cannot surely expect people to live below an acceptable standard so instead of punishing them support them, we all win then.

my advice stop catagorising others who oppose what you believe, if we are to have total change for all we need all. do you coo like a pigeon then? because i see myself as a human. i think maybe you are smarter than you are wise and driven by modern lusts.

len

 

Agree humanity needs a decent standard of living it starts with their environment

Agree people craving unsustainable Modern Lusts are the problem

 

but the environment can't come before humanity, that's the wrong way.

for me there would be no sustainable modern lust. no lust is sustainable.

len

 

What happens Len, when the environment is so damaged it no longer properly supports humans? I don't think we are far off that already if not arrived... There isn't much fresh drinkable water around here anymore.

 

Only if you crave modern lust.
Humanity and the environment are one

We agree
"Cheap" power and a 1st world lifestyle are an unsustainable modern lust.