Top bar bee hives.

Discussion in 'Breeding, Raising, Feeding and Caring for Animals' started by mischief, Oct 12, 2013.

  1. mischief

    mischief Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2009
    Messages:
    1,665
    Likes Received:
    94
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Gender:
    Female
    Occupation:
    s/e
    Location:
    South Waikato New ZeLeand
    Climate:
    Cool mountain
    Now that I have found someone to teach me how to deal with bees and bee hives, I have started reading up on the subject again.

    I came across a book called 'The barefoot Beekeeper' by PJ Chandler.He is promoting a type of hive that is different from the box hives we see around, called a Top bar hive.
    One of my main worries about learning beekeeping, was when I heard how heavy the boxes are when they are full of honey....I'm not sure I can lift them by myself now and certainly wont be able to when I am OLD.
    With a top bar system, apparently, you are only lifting one comb at a time not the whole box.

    I am seriously thinking of using this system next year when I get some bees of my own and would like to know if anyone else is using this system.

    Things I like about what I have read so far.
    No heavy lifting.
    Not having to store spare boxes, while you are waiting to use them on the hives.
    You can put a window in the side to use to check the hive without having to open it all the time.
    The bees make their own comb the way they want to rather than being dictated to by the beekeeper using foundation wax.
    Letting the bees live in the hive more like they would if they lived wild, ie the queen is not forced to stay in one part.Its supposed to more closely duplicate how bees naturally live.
    Alot more comb to do interesting things with.
    to quote....." I wish to propose three basic principles, which form the basis of the 'barefoot' approach to beekeeping:
    1.Interference in the natural lives of the bees is kept to a minimum.
    2.Nothing is put into the hive that is known to be, or is likely to be harmful either to the bees, to us or to the wider environment and nothing is taken out that the bees cannot afford to lose. (me= think this should be split into two)
    3.The bees know what they are doing and our job is to listen to them and provide the optimum conditions for their wellbeing.....(me= gotta love anything with principles,lol).

    What I dont really like.
    Not as much honey as 'conventional' hives produce....he doesnt say how much less...hhmmmm.

    The hive is made up of a long box on legs,with a hinged lid.
    Instead of frames with precast wax attached to them, there is only wooden 'bars' placed across the top that the bees form their combs on.
    He has 2 'follower boards' that are place on either side of the bars so the bees are kept within a certain area. This is expanded as more bars are put in place.
    A mesh floor with a hinged wooden floor for colder weather.
    Small holes for entrances placed where rodents cant get into them, rather than the long wide landing boards at the front of 'normal' hives.
    And I window that I can sit in front of for Hours watching them do their thing.

    Because the comb is freeformed, it wont fit into a centrifugal extractor, so you wind up with comb honey that is just cut up and put into a jar as is, or crushed and strained out.

    Sooo, what do you think?
    Want to join me in a new adventure?
     
  2. 9anda1f

    9anda1f Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2006
    Messages:
    3,046
    Likes Received:
    199
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    E Washington, USA
    Climate:
    Semi-Arid Shrub Steppe (BsK)
    Hi Mischief,
    How exciting! We may be "doing" bees next year and the top bar hive would be our choice too.
    Here's some reading from a local up our way on his experiences with the top bar hives and some of the reasons why he chose that design. He includes some modifications he made and the reasons why:

    https://www.ranprieur.com/land/hive.html

    also his first year's experiences with the hives and bees (scroll down and start reading "up" at 26 February 2013):

    https://www.ranprieur.com/land.html
     
  3. Rick Larson

    Rick Larson Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2013
    Messages:
    743
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I am a beekeeper!

    I have thus far resisted the top bar as it can not be increased in size very easily. A really good queen can quickly overwhelm the space with workers, and then the hive swarms. But this is only my opinion, because I have not actually tried one.

    You can set up a Langstroth hive using all medium boxes, then harvest the honey one frame at a time. About five pounds each. If you get a strain of bees that care for themselves, like Buckfast, you wouldn't even need to bother with the bottom four hive boxes as they will always be the brood chambers, and wouldn't need checking (unless you sense a very serious health issue).

    Then, if the bees are really flying in a lot of nectar, but you don't want to take honey to give them more space to store it up, just add another box, and another box, and another box, until you are ready!

    Oh, and be sure to get two hive setups, I can type you through how to make a new queen naturally, then combining the hives back into one, without slowing the bees down.
     
  4. mischief

    mischief Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2009
    Messages:
    1,665
    Likes Received:
    94
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Gender:
    Female
    Occupation:
    s/e
    Location:
    South Waikato New ZeLeand
    Climate:
    Cool mountain
    Thanks for the links gandolf, I'm popping over now to take a look.( you said...'we'..got yrself a partner now? cool! )

    Rick-baby, your enthusiasm is so infection.......but, I havent learnt to Open a hive yet, let alone work out how to 'make' a new queen.
    I assume you meant what to do with the worker bees to encourage them to produce a new Queen. See, I have been reading. I'm still waiting for the call from my teacher to tell me to get my ass over there, pronto cos the nucs have arrived.
     
  5. Rick Larson

    Rick Larson Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2013
    Messages:
    743
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
  6. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2009
    Messages:
    5,925
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    0
  7. 9anda1f

    9anda1f Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2006
    Messages:
    3,046
    Likes Received:
    199
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    E Washington, USA
    Climate:
    Semi-Arid Shrub Steppe (BsK)
    Oui! (thank you, it IS cool!)
     
  8. Rick Larson

    Rick Larson Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2013
    Messages:
    743
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I've been thinking about using a hollow log, those smaller open frames like the Milkwood website demonstrates, would be a better fit on the top. However, the comb below would never be able to be checked. I think that would be similar to a wild hive location where the comb is rarely replaced.

    So many ideas...
     
  9. mischief

    mischief Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2009
    Messages:
    1,665
    Likes Received:
    94
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Gender:
    Female
    Occupation:
    s/e
    Location:
    South Waikato New ZeLeand
    Climate:
    Cool mountain
    How bout cut the log in half or two thirds. Hollow out the widest section, put top bars along it and used the shallower piece again as the lid.
    I dont know if your laws are the same/ similar to ours, but fixed frames or hives that cannot be checked properly for disease are not legal.

    Hi Big G,
    Loved those links and the Mike Bush website was very informative as well.....alot I understood but there was alot I know I will when I get my hands sticky.

    When started reading about the diseases, I wondered if these bees problems had been caused by human intervention.....seems odd that they all of a sudden start coming down with more and more problems.
    Stress and bad diet/bad food/nutritionally starved- same as for us, funny that.

    Right, I'm of to look at milkwoods now.
     
  10. lukemurphy

    lukemurphy Junior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2013
    Messages:
    59
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Hi Mischief,

    I have had a horizontal top bar hive and a warre hive for a year. I made the htbh first because of similar reasons to you, also having read 'the barefoot beekeeper'. (If you haven't already, check out Phil Chandler's ebooks on natural beekeeping philosophy and principles... inspiring stuff).

    I am much more of a fan of the warre, as I have found it much easier to manage - as you say the only drawback really is the lifting. Making the choice depends on your attitude to swarming I guess - the warre or other box hives are basically infinitely expandable as you can keep on adding boxes, but there is a hard end to a htbh, and when it gets too full they will swarm. This may be more of a problem for me though as I live in an area where conditions are pretty good for bees, so they are capable of expanding the hive rapidly. (Mine filled a hive and swarmed within about 6 months last year, even when I was harvesting regularly and trying to provide more empty combs).

    But swarming is a great thing, its just a little hard to convince neighbours/council of that ;p. If you're in an urban area like me with close neighbours then its a bit hard, but if you have a larger property then its not such an issue.

    As for the harvest it really depends on conditions. I harvested 20kg or so last season while leaving more than enough for them.

    The warre is also a top bar hive, so has all the benefits to the bees that a htbh has in that respect. One drawback though is that as its vertical and not horizontal, anytime you open it you lose the nest atmosphere, whereas with the htbh you can open the ends without exposing the broodnest at all. But you should be opening a warre less times/year than a htbh so that makes up for it a little.

    Anyway maybe if you have the space you can try a few different designs and see what works best in your area. Just include windows in whichever design you do, its amazing to watch them!
     
  11. mischief

    mischief Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2009
    Messages:
    1,665
    Likes Received:
    94
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Gender:
    Female
    Occupation:
    s/e
    Location:
    South Waikato New ZeLeand
    Climate:
    Cool mountain
    Hi Luke,
    I would really really like you to start a blog here-probably the 'members' system' forum would be the more appropriate one.
    It would bee fantastic to read about your bees, hives and what you are doing throughout the year.
    Every year seems to be so different from the last, I'm sure everyone would gain alot from it.

    I have just come across the Warre system and can see that it tries to mimic the way bees naturally go about working inside their hives.That was in one of Gandolfs' links.
    I found Phil Chandlers' website and yes, very inspiring.
    big sigh.....I was kinda hoping that I could do something similar with the HTB by starting them off at one side and adding frames to the empty side til I came across a reference by that old Buckford(?) monk who said it was best to keep them at no more than 5 feet long. Sounds alot, but when you think about how much space the bees need for their babies and the food they need for lean/winter times....it isnt alot.

    Swarming does have me alittle worried, especially with a long skinny yard.
    I thought of an idea to stop the bees poo'ing on the neighbours washing.......I read that they like to do this on white things in particular. So, if I paint the woodshed and chook house roofs white, they should do it there.....right?
    I had planned to use the woodshed roof as a drying platform- might run into a conflict there.

    I have been sitting here contemplating the practicality of getting some sort of winch set up so I could use that to lift the boxes, or could a stand be made that has a lower platform on one end so the hive could be moved over onto it with a ........nah that wont work...

    I think I am going to have to stop trying to figure these things out and for now, just concentrate on learning the basics; get some hands on experience and hopefully this time next year, I will have figured out which way to go with the hives.
    The Warre hives make better sense for the bees though.

    The other day, I told a friend that I was going to be learning about bees.
    She told of their bee SHED they discovered they had when they moved onto a lifestyle block in an old Kauri shed out back.
    Apparently, this had a huge hive in it, with combs like stalactites. They used to be able to walk into the shed and never got stung. Not knowing anything about bees, they got a local beekeeper to deal with the harvesting aspect of this for them.
    He used to just cut whole combs off and take them away for processing.

    This did make me think maybe I could do something in back of the garage- be easier to hook up a winch in there and have one of those tube entrances to the outside.

    What time of day do swarms normally take off?
    If they could be discouraged from doing it on the weekends, that would lessen the neighbours aggravation.
     
  12. briansworms

    briansworms Junior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,161
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    If you are using a Top Bar Hive then the bees will produce more Done Comb than worker comb. Not a problem I suppose if you are just going to cut it out anyway. Rev. Langstroth who invented the standard hives used today did so for ease of management of the hive. The last thing you want is pissed off bees because you are rough handling them. Even well managed hives can have their day and get aggressive if conditions are unfavourable for opening them up. My last dabble with bees was a couple of months ago. We had to under super about 80 hives I think and after about 30 to 40 stings to the left wrist I was glad to go home lol. Yes they tagged my wrist and it copped the brunt of the stings. You cant just run away and leave it open, you have to grin and bear it till the hive is secured again. Having said that I would keep bees again at the drop of a hat is I could.

    I would go with Rick Larson's idea of the smaller boxes. Full depth boxes are extremely heavy but WSP's or Ideals are much smaller thus easier to manage. Using the smaller boxes right through is better than mixed size boxes because the frames are not inter changeable ie. Full depth for brood and ideals for supers. You need to think about why you want bees then work from there. Keep it simple.

    Here in Australia the bees are copping a flogging from limited nectar and pollen available due to a warm dry winter. Then there is the small hive beetle causing problems too.

    Yes you got to love Bees
     
  13. mischief

    mischief Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2009
    Messages:
    1,665
    Likes Received:
    94
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Gender:
    Female
    Occupation:
    s/e
    Location:
    South Waikato New ZeLeand
    Climate:
    Cool mountain
    Sorry Brian, for some reason, your post made me see red.


    I do and the more I learn about them, the more I love these absolutely amazing creatures.
    They deserve to live as their nature or God, take your pick, intended them to live. Not as slave labour to our insatiable greed.



    Dont take this personally, it isnt really directed specifically to you at all. I realise that this is the generally accepted way of things.

    Bottom line though, is we must change or WE deserve to fail as a species.
     
  14. briansworms

    briansworms Junior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,161
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Sorry to upset you and you made me read red. Not my intentions.
    Bees naturally make drone comb for honey storage which I should have put. Like I said if you know what you want from the bees work with that. Most bee keepers are geared up for honey production and so exploit the bees to suit that need. I kept the bees because I loved keeping them and honey was just a by product which I had to extract.

    Bees will fill any space over 3/8ths of an inch I think it is with burr comb or brace comb if the comb for the honey is not uniform. This is why beekeepers use the standard movable frames. Trying to get frames out which are stuck with brace comb and make them difficult to get out thus upsetting the bees when you try and remove them.
    Burr comb is basically natural comb they build under the lid and brace comb is what they build between rows of comb if the space is more than 3/8ths of an inch.
    Last year I was in NZ and was looking at a field of clover. I only saw 1 honey bee which is really sad. Varroa mites over there I think have reduced their numbers over there. Across the road from where I was staying they had just put a bee hive in the front yard. I will be interested to see how it is going when I go back at Christmas. I would love to get the chance to open it up and see just how well they are doing. The chap also grows his own weed to smoke so not sure if the bees will pollinate that lol.

    Hey go for the top bar hive and keep us posted with your progress. I am just jealous that I can no longer keep them. I looked at Rick Larson's youtube video after I wrote that post and I am waiting for him to point out that I mentioned not mixing the size boxes which I noticed he does. I also don't use the gloves, just bare hands. One thing I would like to ask Rick about is what appeared to be a complete lack of using smoke. I found that very interesting. His bees must be very docile. Ok Im gone before somebody else puts me back in my place lol
     
  15. mischief

    mischief Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2009
    Messages:
    1,665
    Likes Received:
    94
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Gender:
    Female
    Occupation:
    s/e
    Location:
    South Waikato New ZeLeand
    Climate:
    Cool mountain
    ahh, I tend to get alittle hot under the collar with regards to ....ahem, certain subjects, like poor living conditions for animals and cruel management practises.
    Part of my ethics in keeping any sort of animal, is knowing how they prefer to live, what they prefer to do and give them a suitable environment... the reason why I kept/keep letting my chooks out..their favourite dust bath area is under the cabbage tree, for example. So in my plan, I have 'plant a cabbage tree in each forage yard'.

    With the bees, they dont seem to ask for much, plenty of flowers that produce pollen and nectar,fresh water that they arent going to drown in, a nice home to raise the kids, abit of help getting rid of parasites and enough good food to see them through the lean times. Seems simple enough.

    Have to say I was already upset cos I had just finished reading some research notes/ lettters of some old dead guy from the 1700's, where he stated quite matter of fact what horrible things he had done to bees in the name of science-like cutting off both antennae of a Queen resulting in her leaving the hive to die by herself. Okay, he didnt know any better, but.....why would you even think of mutilating something like that, just to see what would happen? This sort of thing is still done with the wings of Queens cut so they cannot fly.
    I think it was the bit where you said...'just cut out the drone cells'.....that set me off.

    I just checked the local bylaws on keeping animals and bees. Pretty ambiguous. I did learn that I am allowed 10 chooks- when I checked many years ago it was 6.
    Bees are okay so long as they are not a nuisance or endanger/ cause injury to others. No limits on numbers of hives and it looks like they are prepared to help with solutions to any problems, or potential problems, which is good.

    This year, for me, is the learn about, get hands on experience, find out what plantings I need to put in place to ensure they have plenty of homegrown food so they are less likely to want to wander....I know they will anyway, cos thats what they do.
    I have been holding myself back from building a hive and sticking it in the backyard to see if it is attractive to any passing scout bee, but I have enough on my plate right now without having to cater to anymore known quantities.

    I was hoping someone out there, in our neck of the planet, was using top bar hives so I could get a better idea of whether or not this system does work as stated and is suitable for our location.
    It seems to be a well thought out system, that is based on 'what do bees like to do/ how do they manage themselves and how can we work with this; along with a good dose of, I hope to god it is what it says cos I cant lift those 'normal' heavy boxes of bees and honey.

    Todays' lesson was, walk around the garden and watch bees, how do they go about their business?, what flowers are they on?, are they carrying pollen? Can I spot differences in bee types?, can I see any mites on them?,are any trying to drink water here?,what is the state of water contained here?, any stuck in water? How late are they working the flowers?.

    I spotted 3 different sorts and I am sure I saw drones on the flowers as well. I need to look for a pic of hover flies to make sure it wasnt them.

    Next weeks' should be....go learn how to deal with new arrivals in nuc's and pick up cuttings of a recommended bee tree, a type of willow that can be coppiced as well,to plant around the boundary line for next years season.

    I used to see hives on farms all over the place, now I occasionally see a truck loaded with hives going....somewhere.
    I did a check on our native bees, but so far havent found very much info on them. I am assuming that they will be feeding off the same sort of plants that the bumble and honey bees are.
    I was hoping that we had a type that could use hives, but none do.
     
  16. Rick Larson

    Rick Larson Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2013
    Messages:
    743
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Well brainsworms, thanks for the comments. I bought this equipment used from two retired beekeeps, they were very cheap. Some day I may cut all those deeps into mediums, but as of now, I don't harvest any honey from the lower deeps as they serve as brood chambers during the working time of year. No lifting the entire boxes full of honey, no problems. A check now and again for health, and that is the only time I break them.

    The pattern of the bees thus far is to use the lower deep for more pollen storage with brood through-out the summer, then more pollen into winter. The second higher deep is mostly brood and brood honey, then honey into the winter, which I let them keep. And although the queen insists on using some mediums for brood, they are mostly honey. But I do allow her the luxury if she feels the need to expand quickly.

    Even the upper boxes of frames meant for comb honey, they will make some frames into drone comb, and that's alright too.

    When I give advice, it would be to buy all mediums and standardize the whole of it. But I want to be clear I have not tried any other method, so this is only advice based on my limited experience. Like fingerprints, everybody has different ideas!

    Then, I don't want to use smoke, it bothersome to punish the bees for working so hard for me!
     
  17. briansworms

    briansworms Junior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,161
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Mischief now I understand. I wasn't talking about cutting out drone brood but rather the comb with honey in it. I am sorry to tell you but you will never see Drones unless you happen to see them coming out of the entrance or in the hive its self. Drone's only purpose in life is to mate with a Virgin Queen during which she rips off their penis at the end of it. The Drone then falls to the ground and dies from its injuries. Life is tough for Drones. They cant feed themselves and must be fed by worker bees. They are tolerated in hives if conditions are good but are killed or chased out when times are lean. The Virgin Queen will mate with several Drones and when she is done will leave the last penis inside her till she reaches the hive. This is a sign to the Worker Bees ( all female) that they now have a mated Queen. Within a few days she will begin laying eggs. She will never leave the hive again unless she swarms to form a new colony. All the honey bees you see out on the flowers will be female. The Queen can lay fertilized eggs which females are born or unfertilized eggs which Drones come from. The Queen measures the size of each cell to determine whether to lay a fertilized egg or not. She can lay up to 1200 eggs per day. All fertilized eggs have the potential to become queen bees up till they become 3 days old after hatching. They are fed royal jelly for 3 days then a mix of honey and pollen. Queens are fed royal jelly all their life. All very fascinating and I can understand your wanting to learn.

    Rick I have only basically worked with hives for honey production and without smoke the bees would just attack constantly. The use of smoke is not over used as this has the opposite effect that you want. A little smoke stimulates the need to flee the hive in times of fire. A natural response. They fill their stomachs with honey similar to just prior to swarming. With a full tummy they are less likely to sting or be aggressive. Some one forgot to tell the lot that stung me last time I was around them.

    I enjoyed your video and thank you for doing it. She was a very nice looking Queen you had to but was way too far up the hive for my liking. I suppose that not a problem if you are only removing a few frames of honey here and there. A commercial beekeeper has to control where the brood is thus the use of the queen excluder. I would keep using those F/D boxes till they rot or the frames fall apart then switch to mediums. Like I said to Mischief if you know what you want from bees work from there. Your system is working well for you and if it is not broken don't fix it.

    Do you have any problems with American Foul Brood over there? Here in Australia AFB is a notifyable disease. We also have the small hive beetle which I think came from South America. It wasn't around when I had my bees. As yet Varroa hasn't reach us but no doubt will in time. Yes it is all probably from man's interference with nature. I still have my smoker net and hive tool because you can never say never lol.
     
  18. lukemurphy

    lukemurphy Junior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2013
    Messages:
    59
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Hi Mischief,

    I'll try and put up a few posts in the members systems section, though I can't promise I'll update regularly.

    Some interesting discussion here. I think we should try to keep bees (and all animals and plants) as 'naturally' as possible, though we should never be under the illusion that our way of doing things is perfect or so much better than anyone else. Anytime you keep any living creatures there are compromises, and I guess it all comes down to where you draw the line on making those compromises, and if you can sleep at night.

    One big issue that I don't have any experience with which you will have to face is varroa mite. Again this is where you may have to choose: do you let the bees fend for themselves and the colony possibly dies, or do you intervene and treat with chemicals? I think there are some biological treatments available, though again I've never had to deal with it so haven't read a whole lot on it. They say its only a matter of time of when it gets to Aus, and will be potentially devastating as our bees have no immunity. Which is why, if you want to help bees and pollinators, you must also provide food and habitat for native bees and other species of pollinators. We are fools if we rely only on one (increasingly vulnerable) species for such a huge percentage of our pollination...

    In terms of pooing on neighbours clothes I haven't had a problem (I read that one hive produces 40kg of nitrogen-rich manure per year! deposited within 20-40m radius of the hive).

    Anyway, go for it, build a hive, get bees and you will learn!
     
  19. Rick Larson

    Rick Larson Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2013
    Messages:
    743
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    In terms of mites, and other pests or diseases, the honey bee has an open RNA which would allow them to adapt quickly. However, it would decimate most of the bees leaving only a very few. And then you can build from there.

    IMO, with mites it would be wise to treat some with natural methods and allow some to go untouched in hopes you will develop a queen that has resistance, then find an isolated area and flood it with her queen daughters and drone.

    My video that highlights how to stop a swarm also encourages cleaning out the hive that goes queenless for a time. Another is this mixture sprayed on all the bees and inner hive components: 1 part concentrated citrus juice, 1 part water, 2 parts sugar. The acid kills about 80% of the mites and encourages the bees to groom themselves and others. I would tend to think rotating the various juices once a year at the height of the mite population could work out.

    Most people around my area treats heavily with chemicals and don't like it that I am refusing. And even though I won't treat with chemicals, my splits still mate with their weak genetics, so it is a losing battle, but I'm fighting it anyway. I do have some land in an isolated area and will try my idea sometime in the near future.
     
  20. lukemurphy

    lukemurphy Junior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2013
    Messages:
    59
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Thanks for the info Rick. I'll be sure to watch your videos sometime.

    It sounds like you are doing good things, must be hard to be surrounded by that attitude though.
     

Share This Page

-->