The Zeitgeist Movement's 'resource based economy' vs permaculture?

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by rowan, May 7, 2015.

  1. rowan

    rowan Junior Member

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    Hi, what do people think of TZM and their RBE in particular, and what's the difference between that and permaculture?

    How it seems to me is the main difference is that the RBE starts with the whole planet and what resources exist and divvies it up between resource users (sometimes remembering nature and sometimes forgetting). I haven't seen any actual attempt at quantification of this but if you compare it with ecological footprinting, that would reckon that we'd live roughly at the level of Portugal in terms of resource consumption, if we displaced most of nature. No practical way of achieving this is suggested. Permaculture typically starts with the combination of a property or area of land, the people who want to use it and what their needs are. Then the design process attempts to reconcile those needs with the resources available on the land in a sustainable way, meeting ongoing needs from the renewable resources available. And if there are more resources than required they are returned to the system. PC doesn't tend to worry too much about scales larger than those that are being designed for. So if this were scaled up to encompass the whole world, the number of people which could be supported would be the collective result of all those individual decisions at the property scale. PC also frequently uses inputs from off the property which wouldn't have anywhere else to come from if the whole were went PC. It would be nice to know what an optimum PC could support though, if there were no waste, degradation or external inputs.

    BTW, I looked at posting this on TZM forum, and this is what you have to sign to register. It sums up beautifully the inconsistencies within TZM!
    By joining this Forum, you agree to the following: Forum Purpose: To facilitate development of TZM's Projects & General Educational Work. Overview: The Zeitgeist Movement's Global Forum is not an "Open-Forum" for anyone to come and participate without prior material understanding or a supportive intent. The purpose of this Forum is to facilitate a positive, productive, unified medium for supporters of TZM to interact and progress ideas and projects in a supportive and safe community environment. It is a meeting place for those who support TZM and are active in our Educational Projects, such as Chapters, Projects and Teams. This is why the Forum's layout actually mirrors our Project/Team/Chapter Structure directly. More: https://thezeitgeistmovement.com/faq Moderation: This website is an auxiliary service provided by TZM and will undergo virtually no maintenance or personal Admin interaction with Users. Our Forum Admin team only does one thing: Respond to reports/issues about Conduct Issues/Abuse. Anyone perceived as misusing this Forum (Advertising, Spam, Trolling, etc) will be removed with their IP Blocked. No warnings will be given and there is no recourse if a person is banned. These reactions are solely at the discretion of the Admins and by signing up and using this forum you agree to this understanding. It is up to the User to maintain general decency and respect if they wish to participate on this Forum. Conduct: The Zeitgeist Movement is an Educational Movement that uses the model of prior Non-Violent Civil Rights Movements as the structure for communication and activism. Any Posts relating to or alluding to any form of Violence and/or Aggression towards any person or group will be removed and the User Banned. Respectful communication is the core requirement in this Forum. To disagree with each other and/or certain aspects of TZM in general, supported with respectfully presented arguments is welcome. This is not to discourage skepticism and questioning - that is invited and needed. Rather, it is to make sure Users are able to communicate in a safe, respectful and comfortable manner with others. It you are unable to control yourself from calling people "idiots" or the like, this forum is not for you. Please type, in caps, "I AGREE" below to continue.
     
  2. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    A resource based economy would be a hanger in the wardrobe closet that is Permaculture.
     
  3. songbird

    songbird Senior Member

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    there could be a lot more people in the world if the entire surface were covered by PC, but the issue is not how many people more we could support but how many fewer there should be if we want wild spaces to remain. in other words, not all of the earth should be PC IMO, nor should all of it even be managed by humans in any way. nature and natural processes should be left alone and through that leaving along we increase the chances that we are not obliterating all of the important features of wild habitats, wild animals, plant life, etc. which provides our clean air, our clean water and our clean food. if we continue on the course where we keep reducing all the wild areas to managed areas then we lose any objective chance of comparison between what humans are doing and what nature can do without humans interfering.
     
  4. 9anda1f

    9anda1f Administrator Staff Member

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    I note in the TZM faq the following statement:
    How does this play out with "resource based economics" in an era of increasing costs to extract energy sources (EROEI)? At what point does the RBE decide that the energy and environmental costs of extracting ever-harder-to-access oil/coal is too great to continue?
     
  5. songbird

    songbird Senior Member

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    it also completely ignores such things as meditative and simplistic living, which often work really well with certain tasks. my own practices of gardening i find that weeding is not a chore or a problem in the sense that i want to have someone else or a robot or machine to do it. that would be yet another way of alienating myself from the soil, critters, plants and from the processes of growing, harvesting, cleaning, cooking, recycling the scraps and yes, the eating too... some things i decidedly do not want done for me.
     
  6. Bryant RedHawk

    Bryant RedHawk Junior Member

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    Ok, this has piqued my interest. I have downloaded their manifesto and am reading it to see what this is really all about.

    Somehow their opening chapter sounds like the idea chart for "The Borg Collective"
     
  7. Topher

    Topher Junior Member

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    I often see this sort of thing, and only very rarely does anyone consider future generations in their calculations. If we expect to stabilize the human population at 10B (which is an estimate I often see), and want the human species to survive for another 1M years, then we need to take those resources and divide them by 10^15 human-years to get our allowed yearly consumption. This effort will point how ridiculous most people's ideas of equitable consumption are. And how really skewed American consumption is. For example current 'production' of oil is at a rate which when divided by current population gives 1/2 gallon per person per day! That is at a rate of exhaustion of ALL the resource by the end of the current generation.

    Thank You Kindly,
    Topher
     
  8. Bryant RedHawk

    Bryant RedHawk Junior Member

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    I am in agreement with you. I seriously doubt that the human race will continue another million years, given our penchant for destruction in the name of progress. I give the human race another 100K years at best, perhaps two if we return to tribal values. Add in the current climatic changes, the total dependence on electricity, computer tec. and oil and you can reduce the ability of humans to survive the end result of the climatic change to maybe 50k years, probably less. The idea of one or two countries feeding the world were ridiculous to begin with and are now showing up to be exactly that. Add in the human desire of greed and you can see that there will be food wars going along with the territorial and religious wars currently underway very soon. Conspicuous consumption is an ill thought out scheme and many are beginning to understand just how infeasible that scheme really is. The main problem I see with TZM is that it, like the concept of Communism the fatal flaw is that no one wants to give up the power they have, no matter how small that power is. TZM relies on people being willing to share with every other human on the planet, something that, due to the human psyche will not happen. Even if it were forced upon the people, the end result would be revolt and deposition of those who were forcing the platform upon the people. Exactly like what happens in every civil war scenario that has occurred on earth since before the Roman Empire, which lasted for 1k years before it went kaput.
     
  9. Topher

    Topher Junior Member

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    I *WANT* the human race to last another 1M years.


    Well if we continue with a dependence on *oil* we don't have more than a HUNDRED years, at best. We are already at the half-way point in oil reserves, after about 100 years. If we tapered off at the same rate we ramped up, we could make it 100 years. If we keep *increasing* our usage at an ever increasing *rate*, we won't last until 2070. Any idea how long the current US oil reserves would last if the US only used those? 3 years.

    Why not? The human psyche is not a fixed as everyone seems to think. Slavery used to be part of the human psyche, and human sacrifice before that. Nope. We are capable of being better, and we have done so many times.

    Thank You Kindly,

    Topher
     
  10. Bryant RedHawk

    Bryant RedHawk Junior Member

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    Hate to point this out but surely you have heard of the Human Trafficking that is still going on, isn't that Slavery? In India, fathers sell their daughters to be prostitutes or pimp them out themselves, isn't that a form of slavery? What about the ISIS beheadings, seems to me to be a form of human sacrifice, it is done in a ritualistic manner. I agree we are capable of being better, I hope for it every day, but For some reason there doesn't seem to be much awakening going on world wide.

    I am not even counting the fact that humans are literally destroying the planet they live upon, raping it till the soil becomes just dirt, lifeless and barren. The air quality has degraded so much that in some countries one has to wear a mask to be able to breathe. Don't forget that in China, for the Olympics, they shut down all the factories for two weeks before the start of the Olympics so the air quality could recover enough that the Athletic events could go on. I would love to see human kind survive but the evidence is against it at this time. The evidence, when looked at objectively, seems to be that no matter what, humans will fail to see the errors of their ways and therefore history repeats itself.

    It is written in my people's history and our prophecies tell of the different shakings of the earth, of which we are currently at the beginning of the fifth shaking by creator. It is also said "only when the four colors of man sit at the great council fire and talk as equals, listening to each other, only then will peace come to man and the earth mother."

    Part of the process of becoming enlightened is to see what is actually there so that you can accept what can not be changed and work your ass off to change those things that can be changed. If there is no active dialog, how can this come about?
     
  11. Topher

    Topher Junior Member

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    No, it really isn't. Heinous, yes. Slavery, no. It really doesn't help things to conflate two different things just because they are both horrible. You will note however that those things are also ILLEGAL. Slavery went from being sanctioned by god, to merely legal, to illegal. This is progress.

    No. They are no more human sacrifices than the shooting of Osama bin Laden was. If you want to be encouraged, look into the number of deaths in wars comparing recent years to the past.

    Pollution in the US used to be much worse, China realizes that they have a pollution problem, and they are DOUBLING their manufacture of solar panels every couple of years. At that rate they will supply the entire world's energy needs by 2050.

    This isn't an active dialog? Name three things that can't be changed.

    Thank You Kindly,
    Topher
     
  12. Bryant RedHawk

    Bryant RedHawk Junior Member

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    "No, it really isn't. Heinous, yes. Slavery, no. It really doesn't help things to conflate two different things just because they are both horrible. You will note however that those things are also ILLEGAL. Slavery went from being sanctioned by god, to merely legal, to illegal. This is progress."

    I disagree, on the slavery issue, Slavery is when you are not in control of what you do, people are being bought and sold in many countries, just because it is Illegal does not mean it doesn't exist. Yes it is Illegal but so is the trafficking of Cocaine and Heroin. Yes we have made progress towards people treating others with some respect, no we have not eliminated slavery any more than we have eliminated Pirates.

    Point taken on Isis, but what is sacrifice if not ritualistic murder?

    Pollution is only one issue, until people realize that removal of the rain forest is part of what is creating the climatic change, and actually stop the removal of those rain forests, the problem will continue. Yes the USA has slowed their releasing of green house gasses, but they have not stopped. China may be producing most of the solar panels but the process of manufacturing in china is still major pollution, so yes they are helping in one way but have not curtailed their own pollution of the atmosphere.

    Yes this is an active dialog, this is exactly what all people need to be doing.

    Apparently one thing that can't be changed is the ability of American voters to remove the members of congress that continue to hold corporate interest over the needs of the voters that continue to put them in office, no mater what atrocities they commit. Another thing that can't be changed is Nature, Nature will always win. People who think they can change Nature are sadly mistaken. They may make a change for a while but nature will always win in the end game. The third thing that can't be changed is Time, time is running out or has already run out for many creatures, some of the healing plants and for many peoples, they are extinct. Mankind has been on the path to extinction for an eon or more, they remove all the trees of a land, kill the living soil, poison the water and on and on until they have to move to a new land to begin their process yet again. Europeans came to the Turtle Island and did exactly this thing, They went to other lands as well and did the same thing, calling lands that were others home lands their own. Mankind's nature is to dominate, doesn't matter what they are dominating. This has not changed, ever. It should and must change however if mankind is going to continue to exist.

    I believe that we (you and I) are more in agreement than it would appear. I work towards educating people on ways to heal the land, to make it the thriving, living soil it once was. I work to help people manage the forest so it is not choked with undergrowth and goes back to being home to many creatures and provides the wood needed by humans but at the same time regrows itself. I know that when all finally wake up and see that we are caretakers and start acting as such, the world will be able to support life as it once did. It makes no sense to kill living soil and then provide what was destroyed by artificial means, year after year.
     
  13. ronnon

    ronnon Junior Member

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    Zeitgeist vs Permie

    Correct me if I error, as my truth of the world and its systems changes everyday.

    Resource Economy is an efficiency design to conserve resources with centralized communities connected world wide and pools the world resources to effectively manage the resources of the planet. Permaculture, in my view is more of a reason to exist. Permaculture doesn't say technology is bad or evil, But a Resource economy is going to be as much or more dependent on tech as a monetary economy. Permaculture by design enriches the lives of people, Nature and produces excess that only reinforces the system. Both systems seek to constantly educate the people with the latest discoveries and proven and unproven methods. Both recognize the importance of evolving systems. Permaculture in all its complexity is pretty straightforward, and it doesn't require a super computer, govt bureacrats, and massive amounts of cash to start, operate or maintain. Resource Economy will need people groups, committees, govt., hardware and software, ect. Permaculture just needs you, and not for very long. Even when you are no longer required by the system for the system to prosper, it still sustains and enriches you.

    The hard road is the deprogramming of the populace, peacefully. This is not impossible or difficult, however peacefully takes a lot of time to get it moving. Once the fire is lit, the knowledge and wisdom begin to expand exponentially. That's what's happening here. Eventually anyone able to reason will find the benefits of permaculture quite appealing and rewarding, and will have a difficult time opposing it. I have found this is where a key difference exists. RBE has no mechanism to activate it, and it is only really a controls system for planet wide population centers sharing and collaboration. Permaculture fire was lit long ago, and if it hits critical mass before we destroy ourselves, it will have peacefully conquered the world during a time of on going wars, world wide civil unrest, and record poverty on a dying planet.

    The RBE idea isn't a bad one, and its something that should be fleshed out. To me no idea to make the world better is bad, and this idea addresses a large problem in permaculture evolution. Population centers are going to be with us for a long time. Unfortunately there is no one size fits all, and there most likely never will. Permaculture gives us the education, reason and experiences to confront these problems and issues, guiding us to develop systems to solve said problems that uphold the guidelines of permaculture.

    ronnon
     
  14. Allan Babb

    Allan Babb New Member

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    The Venus Project(TZM) isn't fully fleshed out, even after 20 odd years. It glances over quite a few important topics like how do you find the resources to rebuild every single city? While I'm not entirely convinced that the urban landscape can be made sustainable, destroying old infrastructure just for the sake of rebuilding new infrastructure seems wasteful.

    There is also not much discussion on transitioning. Simply put, TVP says to put a bunch of people in a new city and give them time to sort it out for themselves. Moving from a society that charges for products to an almost free for all society is a big step, no matter how smart you are.

    Lastly, and most importantly, TVP isn't based in nature. We can not separate ourselves from nature. No matter what we like to think, we are not the end form of the hominids. We are not the crown of creation. Our species forms a niche in time. We've only been living in this form of civilization for ~5,000 years. We've only been living in cities for ~10,500 years. We've been on this planet for 200,000 years as Homo sapiens. We should probably be looking at a more tribal system than a city system simply because tribal systems still exist. They exist because they work. Use what works.

    There's also the thing about it being a single, large culture with little differential. We already see what happens when you have one, large culture in control of the planet. We need thousands of cultures, because culture is one way we evolve, just like technology. With thousands of cultures, we have resilience as a species. We need to stop telling each other that "this is the right way to live, and your way is wrong". Permaculture allows, and even suggests, multiple ways to everything. The more I study Permaculture/observe, the more impressed I am with the flexibility of all the systems.
     

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