Hi, what do people think of TZM and their RBE in particular, and what's the difference between that and permaculture? How it seems to me is the main difference is that the RBE starts with the whole planet and what resources exist and divvies it up between resource users (sometimes remembering nature and sometimes forgetting). I haven't seen any actual attempt at quantification of this but if you compare it with ecological footprinting, that would reckon that we'd live roughly at the level of Portugal in terms of resource consumption, if we displaced most of nature. No practical way of achieving this is suggested. Permaculture typically starts with the combination of a property or area of land, the people who want to use it and what their needs are. Then the design process attempts to reconcile those needs with the resources available on the land in a sustainable way, meeting ongoing needs from the renewable resources available. And if there are more resources than required they are returned to the system. PC doesn't tend to worry too much about scales larger than those that are being designed for. So if this were scaled up to encompass the whole world, the number of people which could be supported would be the collective result of all those individual decisions at the property scale. PC also frequently uses inputs from off the property which wouldn't have anywhere else to come from if the whole were went PC. It would be nice to know what an optimum PC could support though, if there were no waste, degradation or external inputs. BTW, I looked at posting this on TZM forum, and this is what you have to sign to register. It sums up beautifully the inconsistencies within TZM! By joining this Forum, you agree to the following: Forum Purpose: To facilitate development of TZM's Projects & General Educational Work. Overview: The Zeitgeist Movement's Global Forum is not an "Open-Forum" for anyone to come and participate without prior material understanding or a supportive intent. The purpose of this Forum is to facilitate a positive, productive, unified medium for supporters of TZM to interact and progress ideas and projects in a supportive and safe community environment. It is a meeting place for those who support TZM and are active in our Educational Projects, such as Chapters, Projects and Teams. This is why the Forum's layout actually mirrors our Project/Team/Chapter Structure directly. More: https://thezeitgeistmovement.com/faq Moderation: This website is an auxiliary service provided by TZM and will undergo virtually no maintenance or personal Admin interaction with Users. Our Forum Admin team only does one thing: Respond to reports/issues about Conduct Issues/Abuse. Anyone perceived as misusing this Forum (Advertising, Spam, Trolling, etc) will be removed with their IP Blocked. No warnings will be given and there is no recourse if a person is banned. These reactions are solely at the discretion of the Admins and by signing up and using this forum you agree to this understanding. It is up to the User to maintain general decency and respect if they wish to participate on this Forum. Conduct: The Zeitgeist Movement is an Educational Movement that uses the model of prior Non-Violent Civil Rights Movements as the structure for communication and activism. Any Posts relating to or alluding to any form of Violence and/or Aggression towards any person or group will be removed and the User Banned. Respectful communication is the core requirement in this Forum. To disagree with each other and/or certain aspects of TZM in general, supported with respectfully presented arguments is welcome. This is not to discourage skepticism and questioning - that is invited and needed. Rather, it is to make sure Users are able to communicate in a safe, respectful and comfortable manner with others. It you are unable to control yourself from calling people "idiots" or the like, this forum is not for you. Please type, in caps, "I AGREE" below to continue.