The Case for the $20,000 PDC

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by TheDirtSurgeon, Sep 18, 2011.

  1. TheDirtSurgeon

    TheDirtSurgeon Junior Member

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    Well... we're veering off the rails, but this is fun. :)


    The operative word there is "leaders."

    We don't have any! The politicians aren't leaders; they're followers, running for re-election the moment they take office. Never mind all that stuff from civics class, never mind the bullshit propaganda about democracy. It's fluff.


    So the government should teach people to be self-sufficient... thus cutting off their source of revenue, the income tax. I don't see that happening! Of course, it wouldn't just be their revenue they'd be cutting off, but their power as well. When is the last time any government willingly gave up any of its power?

    Here's a hint: Machiavelli is required reading for political science students.

    It's not that your ideas are bad. They're not. They're not practical or realistic, though. I do hope you surprise me someday, but meanwhile, I'll continue working privately where decisions don't have to be voted on.
     
  2. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    I'll say it, Coos County Oregon, on the South Central Oregon Coast needs one desperately since, this county where I live, is the most unhealthy county in the state. Not something to be proud of but true, and now, with the Timber industry dying, along with other problems, it is desperately needed, and I wish I could be part of helping one come to fruition... ..daily. Instead I will plug away at reading my books, and learning here and there. :)

    It's not about the wealthy or influential people of the world getting this knowledge, its the people who are living paycheck to paycheck putting it together and making it work that is going to slowly change the world. A 20,000$PDC to that effect puts it out of the reach of those that need it, and goes against everything I think Permaculture is about.
     
  3. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    If the people, or even most..say 75% of a given body of people were self-sufficent, they, as a collective, are free to explore other avenues of the arts & sciences. Holding back humanity for something intangible as 'power' is laughable, even by Machiavelli.

     
  4. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    interesting quote in the above, about the bible that is, when ever has the bible been forced onto people or anyone for that matter, do the worshipers of permaculture feel they are exerting their influence over others, hear it many times, if people don't do a pdc course they don't understand permaculture??? sorry to me permaculture is a conglomeration of common sense practices with a twist. if someone has $20k to waste we need some help along those lines, we don't require others to worship us.

    anyhow be interesting to see real examples of a book that the majority have no idea about being forced down someones throat so to speak?

    and i also don't see the correlation between the statement and the topic.

    like many observe since the "permaculture for sale" agenda came along permaculture has widened the gap between it and teh masses needed to be onside before it will ever begin to roll.

    the goose that may have laid the golden egg has reached its demise. serve it as xmas dinner.

    len
     
  5. purecajn

    purecajn Junior Member

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    Garden - "when ever has the bible been forced onto people or anyone for that matter" It was my understanding that the bible has been forced on to many cultures at the tip of a sword. Just look at the crusades and the all the havoc for that matter in the name Biblical self righteousness. and rather than Permaculture itself being "forced down someones throat" your teaching the masses harmonious principals with nature whereby self security follows. These could be taught right along side of science classes. After which a elective PDC would then be considered an expected end result. A understanding of how the earth actually operates and how our camaraderie is so important for a peaceful and lengthly coexistence on this planet. As it stands governments preach misinformation and tend to hinder individual growth and self sufficiency. As for "the correlation between the statement and the topic," Even with the help of governments pushing the bible it still took hundreds of years for it to become as well known by the masses as it is. And with a government not pushing a harmonious agenda for this planet I'm sure the knowledge would take longer to make the rounds and I'm afraid humanity doesn't have that amount of time to wait before our destruction

    And Dirt, excuse me for focusing on what I feel we should be striving for with society. I say if the politician's aren't looking out for societies best interest then we as the public have a responsibility to remove same. Otherwise we become an enabler and a enabler attitude has thus far allowed personal interest groups to buy many of our overlords without fear of justice, whereby the repetitive downward cycle continues. Nothing ever happens when everyone stands by waiting for someone else to come along and save them.
     
  6. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    well that is wrong judgement but whatever you want to believe! those crusades where gov' run with the aid of religion which has nothing to do with real christianity or bible teachings. actually the saying goes what comes round goes round, and history repeats so are we going into that same process again is the circle coming back together again? and again it will have naught to do with God, like comparing the bible to permaculture 2 different worships.

    and forcing permaculture down others throats if that is what you said won't work either, and the pie in the sky end result is not assured. no guarantees in life.

    len
     
  7. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    The opening paragraphs (p. 1) from the introduction of:

    Wright, D., Camden-Pratt, C. & Hill, S. (2011) Social Ecology: Applying Ecological Understanding to our Lives and our Planet. Stroud, UK: Hawthorn Press

    Please enjoy (my emphasis in bold, and my additions in parentheses)...

    We cannot know the future, but we can dare to imagine. Let us compare two contrasting scenarios. It is the year 3000, and the turn of the century is being celebrated.

    In the first scenario, which confirms our worst fears, it is a severely limited event, in every sense. Only a small area of the Earth is habitable by humans, who are now a minor species on the planet, surviving much as some of the endangered species - such as the orang-utan and gorilla - are today. The survivors did eventually learn to live sustainably, but it was too late; and 'survival of the fittest' inevitably eliminated most members of our species, together with most other species that shared our environmental requirements. It is a sad sight, but they are, nevertheless, celebrating their survival, while mourning their past and maintaining hope for the future.

    In the second scenario celebrations are taking place in relatively small, largely locally self-reliant [Mandala Town-like] communities across the planet. These mutually supportive societies are markedly different from our own. Like the survivors in the first scenario, they are the products of intense psychosocial evolution; but the difference is they embraced the necessary changes much earlier than did those in the first scenario. Despite the apparent 'good life' being lived by the privileged at the turn of the previous century, they recognised that this was ethically unjust and unsustainable. Perhaps most profoundly they realised that their obsession with growth in production and consumption, and neglect of system maintenance - at entry level, from person to planet - was already resulting in significant degradation and system breakdown; and, if allowed to continue, that this would result in the extinction of their species. So, they set about changing everything: from their political and economic systems, and the nature of their relationships with one another and the the environment.

    The details of the changes involved will, we hope, one day be written. What we can confidently say now is that this would have profound changes in their values; and the development and adoption of frameworks for understanding, designing, planning, relating, decision making, and acting that are supportive of the well-being of all, and all life-enabling processes [i.e. permaculture]. Because these processes are primarily ecological, and change involves psychological and psychosocial transformation, these are the areas where their learning and development would have been most intense...
     
  8. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    g'day mark,

    yes granted to what you write, but for me over the years i don't see that those up the top of permaculture planned carefully as your signature line says. they left out an important factor getting the masses on board and start the snowball rolling before planning personal wealth.

    and inline with the topic the figure mentioned will scare more away, no good pandering to the real wealthy they can afford to buy everything they need well in their minds anyway, the rest of us are expendable as permaculture has so aptly demonstrated.

    anyhow keep the dream alive, the reality isn't in sight yet, doesn't matter how much i change what are the other 22mill doing? they're the masses mark.

    len
     
  9. Finchj

    Finchj Junior Member

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    On topic:

    If anyone could get folks to pay $20,000 for the theoretical course, then I say do it. Take the surplus (and there sure as hell better be a surplus at that rate!) and invest it in other places where it'll make the most difference. If I could take an 8 month hands on experience like that, and afford it, I would. I want those skills. I need those skills. I want to share those skills later. But I wouldn't begrudge anyone for setting up a program if I couldn't attend. Finding someone to drop $20,000 on a course that isn't accredited may be harder than you think, however.

    Tangent topic:

    I agree with most of what purecajn is saying about government and what it should be doing. What many people tend to leave out when they discuss government is that we still have the ultimate power over our government. In the US, as long as the Constitution remains as is, the people truly have the power. Government is the tool created by the people to serve their larger interests. Unfortunately our government has been thoroughly corrupted (for a very, very long time) by monied interests. But to resign ourselves to wallow in despair over it is the wrong answer. The worst answer is to bemoan "government" without being specific about who and what is causing problems. Not saying anyone here is doing that, but all too often people throw up their hands and say its "governments fault." No, its the peoples fault. Take some responsibility and organize.

    I honestly believe that permaculturists have a unique opportunity to live their beliefs, share with their neighbors, and build resilient communities. I'm not talking communes, I'm talking taking your average suburban neighborhood and working towards food sovereignty. Any such movement will inevitably run into local and state government interference. It would then be the communities responsibility to change their local government's opinion- if this means electing leaders then so be it. Self supporting communities that support individual private property as well as the commons will be fertile ground for real leaders to emerge. People owe it to themselves to take charge of their own lives, then spread the good news that a better world is possible to their neighbors. If we aren't doing that, then we aren't trying.
     
  10. purecajn

    purecajn Junior Member

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    I'm not trying to turn this into a justification for the crusades nor am I wanting to get into its impact on society, other than to show that government plaid a large part in the global awareness of the existence of the bible and its fundamental principles. And even with all that extra push from governing bodies it still took ages for global awareness. And I'm not saying our governments should force permaculture on the masses. I'm just saying that the gov should be more responsible with tax dollars and funding the public school systems to teach universal truths and along with whatever else one would need to be completely secure in having to join the world of adulthood. How else can one be responsible for their actions. You can't fault anyone for their wrongful actions if they don't know their doing wrong. And a person can't change if their unaware of another option.
     
  11. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    G'day Len

    Difficult to imagine, I agree, but if we don't start somewhere, then scenario one (above post) will certainly become 'the reality'. Personally, I'm more interested in working towards scenario two. But how do we get there, I hear you ask? Simple, we make PDCs more accessible to all; and if that means charging someone $20k in order to crack through their gold-plated ego, then I'm all for it. Of course, once we get them settled into their PDC, it's what we provide them by way of learning opportunities that is really the important stuff - not what brand of suit they are wearing.

    The concepts in the book intro (post above) are not new. Neither (and just the same) is the ethical, socio-political framework of permaculture; it's all about finding better ways of getting along; we 7-billion-odd evolved monkeys, that is. Tönnies (1855-1936) touched on it when he gave us the theoretical foundation for determining the difference between Gemeinschaft und Gesellschaft. Kropotkin (1842-1921) showed us how it could work in Fields, Factories and Workshops. Bookchin (1921-2006) picked it up and ran with it in Post-Scarcity Anarchism. Holmgren expands on it greatly in Pathways. And now, here we are yacking on about it, and hopefully planting a few seeds out there about it in the process.

    Cheerio, Markos
     
  12. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

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    A lot has passed under the bridge since I last looked in on this topic. But...

    I don't think anyone would argue that governments SHOULD blah blah blah. But, to expect them to is just delusional. They have enough difficulty getting reading, writing and arithmetic right!! Hell, schools are little more than childminding services, where kids are let out onto the battlefield like Lord of The Flies.

    The modern 'society' is like a runaway train and we put people in charge who have very little idea of how to even steer the thing let alone put the brakes on and change direction. So they just walk up and down the isles reassuring people with empty talk, giving out biscuits to the people they think will back them up, so they can stay in charge.

    But if everyone in the carriages got together and started to rock the thing they could derail it....

    There is a difference between being unaware and sticking your head in the sand.

    I totally understand your frustration, and I totally understand where you are coming from. But I disagree with you about where the solution is going to come from. There is just way too much vested interest for a government to battle with.

    If we have to have a government then the only responsibility it should have is to provide the structural support to allow things to happen. It is up to the people; to individuals; to groups to make it happen. The problem is, is that too many people are apathetic, or unwilling to stick their necks out.

    What is missing most of all is the strong family unit, the strong local community, people who are willing to give of themselves.

    RISE UP!

    BE the Fricken change! IT doesn't get any more simple than that!

    I could care less if a PDC cost $5 or $50,000, it is a minor point. Hell, in a lot of ways permaculture is beside the point. The point is to live ethically. Permaculture is just a banner to rally to. It is the essence of permaculture and how you implement it in your life that is important.

    .
     
  13. Adam MacLean

    Adam MacLean New Member

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    Is money a resource?

    These conversations about permaculture and money are turning up more and more often, for no pragmatic reason that I can discern. Obviously, there is an ideological debate to be had about the place of money in permaculture, but at this point in history, do we really have the luxury of being able to focus on ideology?

    My question is simply: How do we get from the world we have to the world we want?

    Assess the resources available to us, to see how we can put them to best use.

    Is money a resource?

    YOU don't have to value money. There is a whole system in place to value money. There is lots of money out there, and that money can be traded for things that ARE valuable - like education, and land, and seeds, and 1.5 inch irrigation pipe, and fuel for excavators, and so on. . .

    Is money a resource?
     
  14. FREE Permaculture

    FREE Permaculture Junior Member

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    The original thread had all the initial posts that made geoff reply with the $20,000 thing, deleted.
    so the thread appears now to be started by geoff but it was really a reply to a bunch of posts that brought up some questions.
    these posts are all gone now, maybe the mods didn't think them appropriate anymore but it changes the whole thread as it was much more clear when they were still up what was going on. one thing I brought up was the fact that i can walk down bourke st and ask the first 50 people I saw what they thought about permaculture? the answer then and now, 5 years later is huh? what's that?
    I'm sure that 30 odd years ago bill & co envisioned permaculture to of changed the world by now, well it may of changed some, and the big players are certainly doing big things saving people from possible starvation in africa ect, but pffft.
    no one knows and when the big players die off, they would of left a nice bank balance but the ultimate dream, changing the world will disolve just like the polar ice caps are today, all gone.
     
  15. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    agreed free permaculture,

    would make no difference if one asked 1050 people, the response would be just as negative.
    perma-c is well almost less relevant now than what it was those 30 or so years ago when it hit the TV screens with a whimper.
    the big players the upper echelon draw lots of worship and along with that comes their desire to line their pockets with red, maybe that is the real agenda behind teh push for higher fees to learn out of tomes and see common sense in practice. the life style they have become accustomed to is in the throws of waning so they need to make their moments in front of the converted get more money in the plate??

    when i first meandered along there were lots of permy forums across the net nearly all now folded or gone redundant, probably only 2 or 3 left now activity is falling though. this all began when those above us mere mortals wanted money to hear them talk so to say, they began killing that goose that may have laid a golden egg.

    anyhow it has all been said before, it falls on blind eyes and deaf ears, it doesn't blunt any ego's, and at best it lets us that are truly disappointing vent a bit.

    didn't know that posts had been obliterated though!!?? sounds like communism. for the devotees worship on i guess.

    anyhow we have the carbon industry now, it has all the answers.

    len
     
  16. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    permies.com, PRI and the UK forum are all busier than they used to be.

    In NZ more people know about permaculture than even five years ago.

    I think that really sucks that those posts have been deleted.
     
  17. purplepear

    purplepear Junior Member

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    The debate is important into the future and what has been said is not as important as what will be said or is being said.
    I marvel at the topics ability to get naysayers and wannabes whining about how they would do it if ever they had the gumption to get of their fat asses and do something.

    I think the origional posts are on another thread and this thread was just started to further the debate.
     
  18. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    sounds like political gutter talk, is this the new depth?

    len
     
  19. macey

    macey Junior Member

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    I find the question of relevance interesting, how can a system designed to achieve an ethical, sustainable world, decentralise and relocalise and encourage the rebuilding of community no longer be relevant?
    Does it matter if it's called permaculture, probably not. Walk down the same street and ask the question 'do you think we need to work towards a more sustainable world' I hazard a guess that more people would now say yes than in years gone by when economic growth and availability of fossil fuels was thought to be limitless by most.
    Every other story in the popular media is addressing some part of the worlds dwindling resources, climate change or other environmental issues. Whole political campaigns are now run on environmental issues.

    If anything I would say that permaculture is far more relevant than it has been.
    Permaculture will never be the sole answer to the problems we face (although if it was adopted by all it surely could be). It does however, make up a part of the solution through direct impact in people in some part living by it's ideals (read most people on this and other forums) as well as it's indirect impact over the years, through subtle changes to peoples thoughts and actions, regardless of how small or large it's part in that has been.

    I think in fact it has been slightly more influential than you may think and has in fact entered the mainstream quite a bit, just not necessarily with a huge fanfare, or sometimes even using the name 'permaculture'.
    An example would be the number of TV shows now showing parts of, if not the whole of permaculture. I'm thinking of that show where the guy has moved to Tasmania to live a sustainable lifestyle (sorry to non Aussies) or Costa's gardening show, Costa himself being an avid promoter of permaculture and community based food production. It's alluded to and sometimes even directly named in very mainsteam cooking shows such as Maggie Beers and even more so by Stephanie Alexander's programs and books. For god's sakes even Jamie Oliver is on board ;-)
    I have recently taken up the postion of garden specialist in the Stephanie Alexander Kitchen Graden (SAKG) program, teaching primary school kids everything to do with gardening, ecology, environmental issues and connectedness to their food sources. This is then taken into the kitchen where they learn to prepare, cook, preserve and anything else you can imagine, the food they have grown. The whole program emphasises building of community, working together towards a more sustainable, resiliant community based future and reaches outside of the schools. The word permaculture is not used but it is referenced directly in the teacher training and there is a whole section on permaculture in her book 'kitchen garden companion' book.
    Almost every SAKG garden I have seen is a 'permaculture garden' rather than just a kitchen garden, based on the design system set out in permaculture texts. The majority of garden specialists I have encountered are active permaculturalists (including the program coordinators). This program is basically teaching some permaculture to primary school kids in state schools, how much more mainstream and relevant do you want it?

    I came across permaculture when I was looking for a better way to live my life, I am relatively young and was only just born when permaculture as such was innitiated. I found it because I was looking and more and more people are looking!
    The PDC I took attracts a full house twice a year so people are taking it up.
    I gave up my permanent position in nursing to go casual in order to concentrate on living as well as teaching as a permaculturalist. When I explain this to folk I worked with, not hippy types at all ;-) I have to my surprise found that allot of them have some idea of what it is. One even stating unprompted
    ' wow that is so relevant in todays world'
    sorry couldn't resist!

    Maybe permaculture is no longer viewed in the same way that it was back in the late 70's as an all encompassing answer to world issues. We are now in a totally different world state, less hippy and slightly more scathing of those who live at the fringe, peolpe see ideological ideas as just that ideology not achievable reality, I guess you could say the world is a little more cynical. However sustainable living, cultural change to improve how we as humans live and unfortunately a world in food and resource crisis, which can only get worse, means that permaculture is all the more relevant as a part of the solution!!
     
  20. FREE Permaculture

    FREE Permaculture Junior Member

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    yes the original thread is what i'm talking about, but there's not much point referring to that thread as it's not what it was so this thread is furthering a debate that no longer exsists, you can't filter the hard questions and leave the thread all luvvy duvvy and close the topic, it's exactly like monsanto operates, pay off, sue or wipe out the neg's with moderator/god like powers :)

    I envisioned the likes of Bill & Geoff and co to be worshipped almost like gods themselves, religeons are not for profit too yet they are holding a lot of the worlds riches, they didn't get rich then spread the word, they got rich because they spread the word to the whole world.

    sure more people may know about permaculture then 5 years ago but that's only because those people were looking for it, but it's not in schools, I can do a course on brazillian waxing at tafe now, and I highly recommend it :) can also do a bee course, many horticultural courses ect ect, where's permaculture?
    it all could of been done the other way round, and when bill & co drop off there would of been statues errected in their honor in every major city in the world, people would of visited and left offerings of their bountiful harvests due to their permaculture way of life.
    the money would of come in wheelbarrows, they wouldn't have to still be travelling the world doing pithy courses to a few that can afford it, they'd be doing guest speaking to nations, kissing babies ect.

    Peter Proctor is a perfect example, biodynamics in india is changing everything there, courses are available to anyone, he's probably the most respected white man in india, giving the rest of his life to teaching, he's rich, beyond belief but hasn't got a brass razoo, that's making a real difference.

    anyways, it's all fun in the end.
     

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