Tagasaste/tree lucerne in orchard?

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by Steve J., Aug 22, 2005.

  1. ~Tullymoor~

    ~Tullymoor~ Junior Member

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    Good on ya Tezza, now you've confusled the hell outta me :shock:
    Stop pickin' on me toilet rolls :lol:

    Anyone else have anything to add to all this?? Otherwise I'm gonna plant carnations hehehe
     
  2. Franceyne

    Franceyne Junior Member

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    Hey there Steve,

    We have one mature, three younguns' and two seedling Tagasasties in our orchard (which are a great treat for our pet lambs). We keep them in a bush like shape and at a height that is practical for me (I'm just over one and half metres tall).

    We are in a dry area that may aid the slower growth but, it can be done.

    Cheers,
    Fran.
     
  3. Steve J.

    Steve J. Junior Member

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    Tezza, you may get a high germination rate without scarifying the seed but I always find scasrification increases my germination rate (I sugest you do a test off 10 scarified and 10 unscarified seeds in a punnet...or toilet roll:D and compare the germination rates) Tagasaste, being a legume, requires a rhizobium to fix atmospheric nitrogen. The commercial rhizobium inoculum available is specific to tagasaste. Although tagasaste that has not been inoculated appears to pickup naturalised rhizobium in most situations, why chance it?

    Cheers
    Steve
     
  4. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    my favourite is pigeon pea around here it doens't seem to want to take over does well among the trees and around the vege patches very easy to pull out as it is shallow rooted. also have leucania yeh i know it a declared weed in some areas and maybe should be around here it grows along the hiways and byways but can't realy say it's in charge. anyhow leucania does well here slow to grow and germinate and not taking over.

    len
     
  5. Veggie Boy

    Veggie Boy Junior Member

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    I also scarify my seeds in boiling hot water - leaving overnight. I put a small amount of milk on the seeds and then mix in the inoculant. The milk helps the innoculant stick. Don't put the inoculent in the hot water - it will die. The inoculent is normally mixed in peat and is reputed to only last for 3 months in the fridge. I sometimes wonder if the inoculent is still alive when I get it from the seed supplier, as I have often grown green manure crops only to find that there are no nodules when I pull them up.

    On that point - does anybody know an inoculent supplier - not the seed joints. This would be handy where we have saved seeds - which we often do from pigeon pea, cow pea and chances are Tagaste in future.

    I am sure that somebody posted details of one to a thread some time ago (maybe even 12+ months ago).
     
  6. frosty

    frosty Junior Member

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    I have been following this thread closely as I have said elsewhere our tagasaste trees are struggling

    hoping the minerals we have just put on will help

    but can someone expalin more about innoculation ? could this be the problem ? what does it do ?

    sorry I am so ignorant but I thought it was just another way the "chemical" farmers interfered with nature :oops:

    frosty
     
  7. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    Taggas Rule

    I been looking thru my old style information on taggas
    books lol For more info on growing taggas in western aussie check out Laurence C Snook.Hes the tagga expert from way back.hes an agricultural Scientist no less.If you want the truth about taggasread his book "Tagasate .Tree Lucerne High Production Fodder Crop".
    first published 1986...........QuoteMost Legumes introduced to australiarequire a specific Rhizobium for the formation of nodules which enable the plants to "fix" atmospheric bitrogen..In such cases it is essential to inoculate the seed with the correct "culture"..Fortunatly tagasate appears to make effective use of the Rhizobia used by the native legumes that grow in aussie,so that even in virgin bushland self sown seedlings quickly become nodulated........
    As i said before This is a super tree that certain persons dont like to be more readily available.namely the stock feeders and certain nurserys
    Frosty.....most of these test demo plots where held in your region theres billions of em everywhere ...
    Tezza
     
  8. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    I would jsut add to Tezas explanation of innoculation that if you pull up a plant and you don't see little white or pink (blue? even?) nodules on the roots then by some chance the compatible rhizobia probably isn't present in your soils. If you know someone near you that has actively nodulating Tree lucerne, you can take a handful of soil from under their trees and put it under yours, and you should be able to "innoculate" your soil that way. Or so I have heard.
     
  9. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    I have also been hearing lately that the availability of phosphorous in soils greatly effects nitrogen fixing plants ability to fix their own nitrogen.
     
  10. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    He He.The way i figure it is.Is that on any bare clear area where u can plant/sow, Will be so much better then before,just by having something of benifit, where before, was bare.whatever was allready present in the soil would of benifited whether we sow a seed or nature does, it natures way any ways.
    As for phophorus in the soil, natives i believe hate it
    The only problem i do have is 10 out of 11 taggas died one after another over 4 month periodfrom about may they would of been 5 in the july but transplanted a 3 foot transplants originally from a sort of wate land a bare hard clay area...
    Most tagga seeds are soft when its opening season if collected and not allowed to dry out too much you could keep soft untill just prior to the next autumn rains or plant them any times...
    Too much technical talk is bad... It makes us dummys dummer
    I dont have time to go back to university every time i want to do or change something are we talking one orchard or a whole industry
    :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
    Tezza
     
  11. Tamandco

    Tamandco Junior Member

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    How do I get hold of some seeds? I'm in Vic east of Melb. Can I mail order them?

    I know nothing about this innoculating business other than what I've heard about truffles, so are the nodules on the roots of the legumes fungus too? I'd assumed that if you bought seed from a commercial supplier (if this is possible) they'd have the nitrogen fixing properties. How does it work for pea and bean seeds you'd get from Bunnings? Are they actually innoculated or do they lack the nitrogen fixing ability?

    I was under the impression that legumes take the nitrogen from the atmosphere to fix to their roots but if you've got lots of animal manures in your garden, you'd have lots of nitrogen anyway, wouldn't you?

    Now I'm really confused. I need someone to explain things thoroughly.

    Thanks,

    Tam
     
  12. ~Tullymoor~

    ~Tullymoor~ Junior Member

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  13. Tamandco

    Tamandco Junior Member

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    Thanks Tully, I'll definitely get on to that.

    Tam
     
  14. Veggie Boy

    Veggie Boy Junior Member

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    The nitrogen fixers will generally have some nodules regardless of whether they are fixing nirogen, though the nodules are small and colourless. The true indication of effective nitrogen fixing is the pink or blood red nodules on the roots. Break one between your fingers, if it is red like I'm saying you will definitelly get what I mean.

    I haven't pulled any of my tagasaste up yet to check for nodulation - not really keen to kill them for this exercise. I have however noticed in my cow pea green manure crops that in some crops no significant nodulation has occurred, while in others there have been lots of good blood red nodules - very satisfying.

    In relation to common peas, they do nitrogen fix, but not to the extent of the green manures we are talking about. Also remember that the benefit of them fixing the nitrogen from the air is that you can return it to the soil by digging in the plants, or chopping and dropping to use as mulch. As we tend to eat our common peas, no rela benefit is obtained from these crops in terms of nitrogen returning to the soil.

    If you soil already has lots of nitogen in it, eg. cause you've dug lots of shit in, there is no point putting in a legumous green manure crop. If you want to plant a green manure crop in this situation, use one that adds bulk organic matter to the soil. Buckwheat and jap millett are good for this I have found.

    Hopefully Tezza is right about not needing an inoculent for tagasaste. Think I'll do a bit of a trial of my own - though won't really know the answer for a while.

    My tagasaste are only about a foot high - but are growing rapidly now in less than ideal conditions. This thread is prompting me to plant more - though I am ever mindful of the need to ensure doesn't tuen into weed problem for neighbouring areas.

    Does everyones chooks like the plant - I've found mine aren't real keen on it.
     
  15. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    As for not really liking taggas they do prefere the younger allmostwhite/clear leaves growing stages. they dont like it grey for sure
    Tezza
     
  16. Veggie Boy

    Veggie Boy Junior Member

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    Cool - I'll give them a go.

    Thanks.
     
  17. Tamandco

    Tamandco Junior Member

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    Hey Tully, what a great site. Have added to my 'favorites'!

    Thanks again,
    Tam
     
  18. Tamandco

    Tamandco Junior Member

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    Thanks Veggie Boy,

    One more question. There seems to have been some suggestion that Tagasaste could be a bit of a problem weed in certain districts. As I'm not really familiar with the areas being referred to, could you please clarify this for me. Do you think it could cause a problem in my area, Yarra Valley, Vic?

    Re your suggestion of green manure crop. Thanks, but I was after it as a fodder for the livestock.

    Thanks
    Tam
     
  19. Steve J.

    Steve J. Junior Member

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    Tezza,

    One orchard.... but a nice big one and it's the only one I have. I took a year off and studied Horticulture full time, it was a terrific thing to do, I gained more real (practical) knowledge in that year than I did in 3 years of studying for my Applied Science Degree. However, the more I know the more I forget and the more I forget the less I know :D

    Steve
     
  20. Tamandco

    Tamandco Junior Member

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    Plus, the more you learn, the more you realise how much you don't know. Knowledge is endless and you guys are my knowledge source. So keep studying so I don't have to. :lol:

    Tam
     

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