solar power systems

Discussion in 'Designing, building, making and powering your life' started by bazman, Jan 19, 2006.

  1. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Solar/wind hybrids are excellent ways to maximize your energy production. Frequently the wind is blowing when the sun is down, and the sun may shine on a calm day.

    I am a dealer installer for solar/wind systems. I sell a few "larger" (small by most standards) systems a year the last few years, and before that I have been selling small one or two panel systems for farmers who live beyond the grid. I have designed and built several solar water pumping systems using piston pumps, diaphragm pumps and a few kinds of submersible pumps.

    I just, last night, got back from the first half of installing a smaller system (300 watts solar and 400 watt wind turbine with 1000 watt inverter, 400 amp hour battery fat 12vdc) for the Toledo Institute of Development and Environment ranger station at Paynes Creek National Park. I have installed another, slightly larger system (375 watts solar, 1.8 kw inverter) for them at Abalone Cay in the Port Honduras Marine Reserve.

    Mesoamerican Barrier Reef System bought a larger system of 650 watts solar, 2 kw inverter for their ranger station and research centre at Hunting Cay.

    We live with solar. Our system is 450 watts of solar, an 800 amp hour battery at 12 volts and a 1.8 kw inverter. I have a simple wind turbine (obtained from an alcoholic exyachtsman in the terminal stages of that disease of the humid tropics that expatriots frequentyl catch, Gringo Debacheritus, which involved drinking, more drinking, and losing all of your money. Very tragic... but its an, and you'll excuse the pun, ill wind that blows nobody good.... and I got the turbine, an Ampair 100, with a solar panel and some dive equipment, for USD200, a steal of a deal... and I sold the panel for USD200) ... but haven't gotten around to installing it yet....

    We mostly run lights and some fans on the DC current, and the inverter powers some of the computers, the sattelite internet, a well designed and highly efficient washing machine and the occasional power tool. We ALWAYS have lights, tho sometimes we budget our energy because of weather... foregoing washing machine in day so we can use internet at night... etc

    All of the systems I have installed have been for locations where the grid doesn't reach and will most likely never reach, either because it is in the sea on an island, or on a small feeder road where it would not be cost effective for the utility to run lines, or to pump water for irrigation or for house water.

    Our system would cost about USD6-7000 or so to buy. I got all of the panels for either free or for very cheap because I am a dealer, and also because I am a bit of an opportunitic scavengar... It also started out as a 1 panels, two light system, with a small fan for the bed... not one of the components is from the orignal system, it just grew, and grew....

    When Hurricane keith slammed Ambergris Cay, I ended up with 8 panels for about half what they were worth, and sold 4 of them for 3/4 of what they were worth, and ended up with two "free" (and the other two for about the price of one). I aso watch as villages become electrified, and I go in a month or two later and buy up the panels. I then package the panels with charge controllers and fusing to sell as one or two panel systems, and I sell the whole engineered system for less than retail.

    I make some money off of the larger systems, and I don't lose money on the others, but I really believe in solar, and my interest in solar is based on a desire to spread the technology.

    Solar is cost effective... especially if you are off the grid a short distance. However, it may not appear cost effective in short term accounting when compared to grid power, because all of the hidden costs of nonrenewable energies, acid rain, nuclear waste, global warming, melting icecaps, carbon pumped into the environment, damage to watershed from big dam hydro, invasions of sovereign nations under false pretexts (WMD and BLTs) for their oil, etcetera, are usually not factored into the equation. If the true cost of nonrenewable enregy to the envoronment and human health were taken into consideration, solar and wind would become "cost effective" quickly.

    Each solar panel has about three years worth of embedded energy, meaning that three years of sunlight shining on the panels will make as much energy as went into the solar panels creation. After that, its "free energy".

    Most panels on the market now come with a 20-25 year warranty, which speaks well of the reliability of the technoilogy.; In fact, the first panels made for NASA 40 years ago (at USD10,000 a watt versus the USD5 or so per watt now), are still running fine out in space.... I can't think of anything else with such a warranty!

    And, you are right, Derek, the weak link is the batteries. Lead acid batteries last between 3-15 years, depending on the battery. Most batteries will last 5-7 years, though we have a set that is 8 years old. Then the whole bank must be replaced. Nickel cadmium batteries last longer, but have cadmium, which is highly toxic.

    The one good thing about lead acid batteries is that they are very easy to recycle, and in countries like the US where thay have mandatory buy backs of batteries, +%99 of batteries are recycled.

    Before the US's rural electrification prorgram in the 1930s, most farm houses in Americas rural midwest ran off of 36 volt Wincharger wind turbines. These turbines are still around, and many of them are being repaired and returned to service....

    The batteries that they used were nickel iron batteries, which are very long lived batteries. Short of mechanical destruction, there is nothing that you can do these batteries that will damage them that is not chemically or electrically reversible. The chemicals involved are an alkali solution.

    These batteries still work! I have read of batteries that sat in a barn for 70 years and were bought up for next to nothing and put back into service.... they still function fine.

    The problem with these batteries is that no battery company wants to make them anymore. Why give up on your repeat customers who will be back every 2-15 years by marketing a battery that will last indefinitely? And, hence, noone makes them anymore (except in China, and they are expensive and do not have a great track record...)

    As long as lead acid batteries are the norm, the batteries will remain the weak link...

    We don't have any fridge. I buy ice now and again, to out in our drinks... but we just eat fresh most of the time. Sunfrost fridges are the best! They are really well designed, with lots of insulation, and the compressor top mounted.... and they are pricey... but compared to a tradtionbal, inefficient fridge, designed to end up in a landfill in 8 years, they are great. They are designed to run on DC power, obviating the need for a fridge... and I drooled when I saw the first on here in Belize (missionary guy bought iot down on a bus...)

    There is another company named "Sundanzer" which makes top loading chest fridges and freezers to that same caliber of uqlity, and these are also very efficient, and a bit cheaper and might be a way to go. Not sure where they are located, and as Sunfrost is on the west coast, it may make shipping for you cheaper.... My friend, Jakob, just bought one, so I will have to ask him what he thinks after a few months....

    And, microhydro is the way to go, if you have the ability to do it. A good combination of flow and drop, that is the best place to be (and, sadly, we are not there :lol: ). Wind is a good way to go, if you have the right site... and solar is good, but much more costly than either wind or microhydro.

    Does anyone have a microhydro appropriate site?

    C
     
  2. gingerperth

    gingerperth Junior Member

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    hi, i'm new to this group (but not to permaculture - started learning with bill mollison and others at tagari back in the early 80s). i've followed this thread with great interest. is everyone here aware of "peak oil" and how, globally, everything will be changing very soon as cheap fossil fuels will become more scarce at the same time that world demand continues to grow dramatically, resulting in more expensive energy to power transport (including farm tractors and food deliveries to supermarkets), fertilisers, oil-based plastics and medicines, etc.

    locally-produced essentials (including energy) will not just be a "feel-good" decision -- it will become much cheaper than stuff brought in from far away. and eventually, local things may become all we can find/afford. for more info see:
    https://www.peakoil.net
    https://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net
    https://www.fromthewilderness.com
    https://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 22peak+oil%2
    https://seabed.nationalgeographic.com/ng ... &start=200

    i have saved many files on this topic (both for and against the idea of "peak oil") so contact me if you'd like them.

    many "PO" activists don't believe there is much we can do to prepare for the effects of the loss of cheap fossil fuel energy. like climate change, they think it's gone too far to recover. but i am an optimist and want to find ways to minimise the losses (pain). one very hopeful sign is the adelaide invention of the sunball
    https://www.greenandgoldenergy.com.au/
    already mentioned by aussie_spritegal. again, you can contact me if you'd like more in-depth info on this system.

    anyone heard about the aussie guy who turned a chest freezer into a very energy-efficient fridge? Tom Chalko, Mt Best, Australia, mtbest.net. A fridge that takes only 0.1 kWh a day (running 90 seconds per hour). if you can't find his website, i've saved the files.

    i've come across a few other great ideas that are rare to see discussed anywhere (like those nickel-iron batteries mentioned by christopher, and the strawbale/mudbrick cool rooms from bazman and franceyne).

    anyone with info on "earth tubes" and "solar closets"?
     
  3. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    okay ginger, send us the files on the .1 kilowatt fridge! send us the files!
    [email protected]
    oh, and welcome to the forum!
    look around and you'll see there has been abundant discussion here on the PO subject.
    me, I just really wonder. isn't there vast amounts of natural gas to be tapped after the crude runs out? sure that will involve changes in infrastructure, but that's an economists wet dream isn't it? I must admit I haven't done too much reading on the matter, as I find too much evidence all too depressing. I have a hard enough time passing open windows some days as it is. (lucky I live on the ground floor, eh?)
    hopefully you will find time here to tell us some of your stories from Tagari farm. I was there in 1999 and 2000. Really loved that property. Wish I had a million bucks so I could buy the place and go fishing in doug's dam and the y-front, and look up at the pinnacle as the wind and rains tear in...
     
  4. gingerperth

    gingerperth Junior Member

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    hi richard,

    i'm new to this forum and i can't figure out how to send you the file on the aussie homemade chest fridge. i tried the personal message system but couldn't see any way to attach a file. i hve it as a pdf (original) and i've converted it to a word file (makes it possible to highlight bits and add comments)

    what am i missing? any solutions?
     
  5. gingerperth

    gingerperth Junior Member

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    duh! i didn't see your email address at first. i've just sent the files.

    i'm in the habit of collecting online info and appending it to files already on the same topic. so most of the files are assorted collections

    i was in tagari, tasmania, for about 2 weeks, doing the first PDC (same one that Max Lindegger did, i think). i haven't been to the NSW version of tagari.

    natural gas is expected to reach peak a few years after oil. most of the USA home heating uses natural gas and they're not able to produce enough to satisfy local demand. that's why the world rush to secure LPG, LNG, etc supplies is happening now. and it's why the LPG for my old taxi keeps going up in price.
     
  6. Jez

    Jez Junior Member

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    Welcome Ginger,

    I'd love a copy of that freezer/fridge conversion...I've seen something which must be similar done for keeping multiple beer kegs cold, but I didn't know they could be such great energy savers. I've PM'd you my email address - thanks in advance!

    Just on the natural gas thing...we have recently signed a deal with the US to export our natural gas...at last estimate Australia had around 100yrs worth of natural gas if this was used instead of oil at our current rates...so effectively we are preparing to export our last major energy asset (besides uranium)...as our major oil wells peaked long ago. The Chinese are gearing up to take the uranium off our hands...

    Ginger is quite correct unfortunately Richard, demand for natural gas as a heating source is outstripping supply in the US despite the large quantity they import...compounding the looming problem is the fact that natural gas is essential in producing commercial fertilisers and plastics.

    I saw an article the other day where agricultural advisory boards were telling farmers to use less fertiliser than previously recommended because they can no longer afford it...along the lines that half as much fertiliser will still grow you 3/5ths as good a yield as before.

    The huge rise in fertiliser prices over the last few years reflects the rising cost and dwindling reserves of natural gas...makes you wonder where traditional commercial agriculture will be a decade from now...it really isn't looking remotely viable unless either the supermarkets or the consumer absorbs a massive price hike (wonder which it will be... :? )

    I'd like to hear more about earth tubes and solar closets Ginger...the latter sounds vaguely familiar...

    BTW, I really love your "good idea junkie" slogan... :lol:
     
  7. dryland dweller

    dryland dweller Junior Member

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    just did a google and found a few australian manufacturers/distributors of 12v/DC fridges, which are claimed to be suitable for solar power. I haven't had time to check their specs and power requirements.
    ==================================
    aussie_spritegal try https://www.waeco.com.au they have fridges & freezers for raps systems. I have a fridge freezer and it runs well and stays cold even in our 40C+ temps of late :)
    Pete
     
  8. Jez

    Jez Junior Member

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    Forgot to mention this site:

    https://www.quirks.com.au/

    Has some fridge conversions etc - fairly wide range and lots of other interesting things...offers a great example of the sort of savings and improved efficiency the Sunball will bring if you compare Quirks costings for a solar setup with traditional panels versus a Sunball system.

    Might be something there people are interested in...Len, I see they have a few whoppers there which would keep you out of trouble mate... :lol:
     
  9. living simple

    living simple Junior Member

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    Solar Power

    Hi all,
    My husband and i installed a small (800 watts) system about 4 years ago. We are not on 'mains power' and only use the solar system and gas hot water/cooking. Our complete system cost $16,500, but we got a government rebate of $4,000 - us paying $12,500 total (including installation). There is only the two of us and we both work away from home full-time and therefore don't use excessive amounts of power, but we do like our luxuries which include, t.v, video, stereo, xbox, blender/food processor, computer, washing machine, hairdryer, vaccum cleaner and lights of course! We steer clear of items such as electric kettle (we use gas stove instead), electric toaster (we use the gas griller), electric alarm clocks and any other item which stays on all the time such as answering machine, etc. We turn off our t.v, video at the power point every time we're finished with it (especially in winter!) to conserve power. We also bought a 'solar fridge' last January and have found it to be wonderful. For the first 3 years we were trying to run a small 'normal' 60 litre bar fridge to keep things cold, but it was draining the poor batteries quite fast - and we had to turn it off over the winter months. Now we have a 220 litre fridge/freezer 'converted Kelvinator', which is fine for our needs, and it runs all year round perfectly! (We purchased this through ACME Appliances in Launceston, Tasmania for $1,500 - expensive really when you think of what fridge you could buy at Harvey Norman for that amount of money!).

    We are happy so far with our solar system - i'm just cringing the day when the 4 huge batteries die and need replacing! Hopefully they will last the 15-20 years that the installer said we may get from them!!!

    Personally, i would look long and hard at your power usage, how much sun you get, if you have a large family, and if you can afford a dual system like sun/wind, etc. I would've loved to install a water 'pelton wheel' instead of solar, but alas, we didn't have the water volume needed to drive it. So, if any of you who are interested in alternative power sources and have good water supply and fall - look into a pelton wheel system, which costs far less and gives constant power as long as your creek/river runs! The downfalls i find of solar is the paying-up-front cost, the constant checking every electrical item you purchase (i'd love a George Foreman grill!!!) and buying de-ionised water and topping up the batteries every couple months. The benefits are, no more power bills (the obvious), and having electricity when everyone one else says - 'wow, what a storm last night, we lost power for hours!'.

    Well, have a great day - the sun is shining and the batteries are soaking up the rays here in Tassie . . .

    Cheers
    Lyn
     
  10. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    Lyn's comment about buying deionised water rang a bell with me. But then, recently, our Solar guy, who recently sold us some $1500 worth of batteries to replace the old dead ones, told us that rainwater through a reverse osmosis filter is fine for topping off the batteries. He also let me in on a little tip, that it is much easier using one of those spray bottles like they use for spraying roundup but with the sprayer nozzle snipped off, than it is trying to pour water through a funnel into each cell. I tried it this morning for the first time and it made the chore so much less tiresome...
     
  11. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Lyn,

    What kind of batteries do you have?

    We have 4 L16s that are failing after two years (shi-t!)... It'll be close to USD1000 to replace them!

    C
     
  12. bazman

    bazman Junior Member

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    Christopher, do you use Desulphators on your batteries? they are supposed to improve battery life by reversing sulphation.
     
  13. living simple

    living simple Junior Member

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    Christopher,
    The batteries we have are called 'Exide Energystore 2 - 6RP 1080'. They cost about AUS$1000 each - and we have 4 of them.

    I haven't heard of the L16's? And if they are failing after only 2 years, i don't think i wanna know about them!!! That's one of the real downfalls of solar systems i believe. I hate having to replace items - especially when they are so costly. I'm hoping by the time my batteries totally die, someone out there will have created a 'perfect' battery/system at a fraction of the cost! Oh well, i can keep dreaming!



    bazman
    Desulphators???? I've not heard of this? Can you give me some more info please? What is it, and what do i have to do?

    Cheers
    Lyn
     
  14. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Baz,

    No, don't own desulfsaters... yet, bbut my next order of stuff is going to include one/some. I have read about them.

    L16s are the medium size batteries that generally last 5-10 years, with care. I have owned them before with good results (7 years), but for some reason. Min have not lasted, and I'm not sure why. of course, now that they are toast, we don't baby them anymore (ha, ha), but I think the set after this next replacement is going to be nickel iron, whicch last, well, seemingly forever...

    The replacement set will be L16s as they are available...

    Lyn, tell us more about your system, what is th voltage, 12, 24, 48 etc, what sort of controller, how many watts of solr, etc. I am very interested.

    C
     
  15. Warwick Rowell

    Warwick Rowell Junior Member

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    Users of Solar Power

    The pink house at Rosneath Farm has now been using solar power for over nine years. We have not used a backup generator for four years - we switch off the deep freeze for three months in winter to achieve this.
    No icecream is not too hard a sacrifice!

    We have normal appliances, and a fully fitted home office, with satellite broadband.. Our system is 1.25kw of panels, a 3kw inverter (so we can run serious power tools), and now 1330 amphours of 24v battery storage. Our first set of hoppeke batteries was 900 amphours. One cell went on us, which was disappointing - we expected much more than 8 years from them. Replacement cost was $2600. Add $50 for distilled water. $330 per year!!!

    The crucial thing in any system is having the controller/digital readout where you see it every day. Ours has a set of LEDS of different colours showing the voltage in the batteries. I can tell the state of the batteries from our bedroom at the other end of the house.

    We defer washing clothes until midday, or even for a day if it is cloudy.
    Consumption goes deep freeze, last spin cycle of washing machine, washing machine, fridge, and the multidraws of laptop, printer, satellite modem, and Zip drive. After that you can forget it, other than a sensible attitude to the use of lights. Beware modern QI lamps. Some have the inverter upline from the on/off switch, so you have a 24hr a day draw.

    Rosneath Farm is still unique as far as I know; our houses are totally unreticulated. There are no wires, pipes, cables going to or from any one house. This means the houses can be placed where they should be in the landscape.

    Warwick Rowell
     
  16. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    Interesting that you defer doing the laundry until midday Warwick. We tend to put our clothes on earlier in the day, in the notion that then we will have the rest of the day to top the batteries back up again...
     
  17. Warwick Rowell

    Warwick Rowell Junior Member

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    Solar management issue

    Richard you have "hit the nail on the head". The key issue of management is that battery longevity is inversely correlated with the depth of discharge: If you use lots, and nearly flatten your batteries, they won't last as long. If you work to minimize the discharge, then your batteries will last a lot longer.

    This can operate on a daily basis, as well as long term, over winter say.
    We wash near to mid-day, when input is maximum, to minimise draw. We are blessed with clear skies and bright sunshine, even four days out of seven in winter (mostly). This means that we have around three hours of maximum input after midday, to ensure the recharge needed is achieved.. It is a balancing act that can only be achieved if you can see the state of your batteries.. hence the earlier comments.

    In winter, we will think about using the backup generator when we have the washing machine on.. Depends on the cloud conditions on the day, and the state of the batteries.

    Regards

    Warwick
     
  18. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    Yeah, I guess it is a bit of the old "you can't have your cake and eat it to", or at least not forever, when it comes to batteries.
     
  19. living simple

    living simple Junior Member

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    solar power

    Hi Christopher

    Sorry it's taken me a while, but here's a little bit more about my solar system:

    It's a 24 volt set-up, with 800 watts of panels (80w x 10 panels). We purchased a Plasmatronics PL 40 Solar controller, a Latronics 2500 watt sine wave inverter (24 volt) and a Stanbury battery charger, along with the 4 x Exide Energystore batteries.

    After we had this entire unit in operation for a year, we also purchased a small 'advanced solar charge controller' which is situated in the kitchen above the sink and tells us how the system is going. At a push of the button i can tell if i'm using too much power for what's going in, etc - very handy item!

    We are happy enough with our system, although in hindsight, i would have bought another 2-4 solar panels (especially since there was a good discount on panels!) - thank goodness we already decided to get 2 more than the installer recommended!! And i would have treated my batteries much better in the first couple years as well! We used to run them almost flat (due to having a 'normal fridge', and with our long winters in Tassie didn't help!). We treat them much nicer now - just hoping they are good quality and will repay us with a long life!

    Any other info you are interested in, let me know and i'll try and help!

    Cheers
    Lyn
     

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