solar power systems

Discussion in 'Designing, building, making and powering your life' started by bazman, Jan 19, 2006.

  1. bazman

    bazman Junior Member

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    I thought I would see what % of those here use solar power, apart from a small electric fence running on solar we have nothing, Yet.

    Of those that do have a solar systems are you connected to mains power or do you have a stand alone system, what type of battery banks do you use or recommend? do you feed power back into the mains system if you do, do you have batteries or none at all.

    Maybe if those who do have solar systems could give a little feedback on what works for them and what does not.

    Does anyone have a wind turbine that works with their system?

    I have been looking at what packages are around and the type of systems availble, my thoughts on a system for here would 8x120w panels (at a guess) and a small wind turbine with no battery backup, instead a petrol gen-set as we have only lost power here a few times over the past few years. I do computer work from home during the day so if I could draw from the system that would be good, I'm still learning about solar power and wind power but would like to invest in it down the track sometime.
     
  2. derekh

    derekh Junior Member

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    bazman

    I'm certainly no expert on Solar but here is my 2c worth.

    As yet, I would not consider going Solar an investment because of initial setup and replacement costs. A small setup to power your place could cost in excess of $30,000 and a decent battery bank could cost around $10,000 to replace every 10 years. Currently, the economics of it just aren't there until battery technology improves.

    In rural australia, government subsidies of 50% are apparently available for properties not readily able to connect to the grid.

    I would suggest subscribing to any Green Energy program your electricity retailer (Energex) has so your power is generated using renewable sources.

    A small disclosure is required here - I work for an electricity retailer (not Energex btw).

    cheers
    derek

    p.s. I haven't forgotten about the Lomandra and Sugar Cane I am growing on for you.
     
  3. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    We are off the grid on solar. I think we have about 1100 watts of panels, a SW trace inverter that could be grid interactive if we were anywhere near the grid, and we have 8 UL-16 batteries. So it is a 24 volt system. Our neighbours all have 48 volt systems, but I don't really get why...
    I think as Derek said, it is a nice thing to be using solar power, but it is pretty expensive. Of course, if you look at all the other costs of using coal fired or heaven forbid, nuclear power, solar starts to look like a pretty bloody good deal. :lol:
     
  4. spritegal

    spritegal Junior Member

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    Battery replacement of $10,000 every 10 years equates to $1000 per year.

    I spend about $1200 a year on electricity as it is, so going solar means I'm still out in front by $200 bucks a year!

    The capital cost is, as pointed out, fairly onerous, but if it is built into your original building costs (if building a new home), then it is easier to justify.

    I'm hoping to install a Sunball system, once Greg Watson releases it to the commercial market in February :)
     
  5. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    wow aussie_spritegirl,

    that's a whack of power hey? using that much for my cents worth wind/solar probably won't be much good to you anyway dunno?

    when we did our home work we got figures like derek indicated except the batteries where around $6k but not much difference, and apart from the initial layout of lots of componenets with built in obsolescence around #30k you had to be putting at least $1k away per year to replace the system as it wore out, it made for very expensive unreliable power. just ask yourself what happens when there is no sun with a solar system, got a mate with one and he prays for sunny days, they have to be power misers just to excist sometimes. and as for feeding back to the grid that for me is a fools paradise the best advice i got there was forget it.

    wind would probably be more reliable if they would get away from the swing propellor system that can't cope with any eddies and is a high maintanance system requiring a tower in most cases (look at those ugly habitat space consuming wind farms yuk). so they still need a generator driven by some sort of fuel to either top up batteries or run the home, think about it hey.

    now the other down sides quiet big ones, living in rural we need cool/cold capacity storage and a good supply of it eg.,. large model fridge and freezer to say the least and if we got into grazing our own beef one of those 2 meter cold rooms would be ideal suited, wind/solar just simply won't power them you would still need the grid to power them, on our last ask we where told that in practise solar would only power a small fridge no more than about 420 litres and maybe a small freezer.

    so we would have had to expend $30k app' to supply lights and incidental power for small appliances, and still have the grid for food storage and still need a reasonable kva size generator, didn't add up! well not in our budget.

    up here with on demand pumps a 500 liter fridge and large freezer we use around $500 give or take a little, in power per year, even in the 'burbs using gas for hot water and cooking our power bill was around $400 per year. we looked at solar there as well in a regular poorly designed home and that was going to be around #30k just for lights and small appliances.

    and for my bit centralised so called renewable power is going to be very very expensive at the meter, reckon the poorer people won't be able to afford it, and like those habitat space consuming ugly wind farms solar panel farms will look just as bad won't kill as many birds i s'pose? dunno?

    but anyway before jumping in on the 'catch cry renewable' (at a price) scene for you home do your homework in depth, there are many componenets all with their own price tags that need raplacement from 10 year to 20 year periods. decentralised system were each home provides its own power is the way i feel we should be going as a sustaibnable society but currently the designers are locked into narrow track old design thought patterns, why can't wind units probably going to be the better out of the 2 or have both (hang the expense hey) why can't they be used with a turbine like those spinners we have on our roofs? why bird killing noisy and possibly dangerous propellors mounted on towers, and if something happens guess we'll see you in court facing liability litigation under duty of care.

    yes we see storage of power as being necessary in these systems, so at present battereis are needed, and the otehr side of the coin what about recycalabilty of components and what abouit all the plastics in the components must be lots of polluting aspects in making this stuff? and old batteries??? hey you tried getting rid of an old car battery lately the dumps out, takes a lot of in depth thinking doesn't it.

    anyhow our cents worth as we see it.

    len :? :shock:
     
  6. spritegal

    spritegal Junior Member

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    Hi Len

    All good points you've raised. A dual solar/wind system would probably suit most people better. However its not windy everywhere in Australia;- it would be ok if I lived in Cape Otway, but I don't. I've looked at the wind roses for this area and the winds are intermittent, to say the least, and very seasonal, so its not an easy avenue to pursue.

    Having said that, there are plenty of solar fridges on the market which take far less power than the conventional ones to run, and I have made enquiries about them overseas. I can't find an Australian distributor of solar fridges.

    I'll have some time to plan all this, probably towards the end of this year, so will work towards the best compromise available.

    Thank you for your thoughts


    spritegal :)
     
  7. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    g'day spritegal,

    would be interested in info on solar or solar compatable fridges/freezer as that is one aspect of family life yo can't get away from no matter how good an eco' home you build, and for the main even us we need a 500 litre fridge and a medium to large chest freezer, and like i said we like our beef so a 2 meter cold room with freezer section would be more applicable.

    this is all working within in the standard 12 volt systems, i was told to get the fridges converted to 12 volt but it all takes money and it's still all got built in obselescence.

    we get good wind here but we absolutely refused to pay for a testing station to be built for up to 12 months, we reckon the installer of wind should have enough knowledge or they pay for the recording equipment. might not be needed if the technology used turbine type wind collecting equipment and wet finger tech'.

    so the factor in points are the obscelesance cost that starts at around $1000aud per year just for batteries alone and the recovery cost of the system needs to be added in as it doesn't have any savings to balance expense against well apart from maybe environmental?? still feel it comes under the feel good catagory and for those who can afford to look different.

    so keep us informed as you go along always very interested as us humans need to do something but moving environmental issues from our back yard to someone elses backayrd isn't it.

    len
     
  8. spritegal

    spritegal Junior Member

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    Hello Len

    I just did a google and found a few australian manufacturers/distributors of 12v/DC fridges, which are claimed to be suitable for solar power. I haven't had time to check their specs and power requirements. The mob I was talking to in the US is:

    https://www.sunfrost.com/

    If you want a current MS Excel pricelist for Sunfrost, which lists models, power requirements etc, PM me with your email addess - you are welcome to a copy

    spritegal
     
  9. bazman

    bazman Junior Member

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    Hi All

    Len, talking of wind systems, I have been playing with a design, which has already changed from this design some what but it gives you an idea of where i'm heading, the design has some good and bad design features, I have some very smart friends who are always willing to pick holes in my ideas. Once I build my shed I will have a place to work on a prototype, but in the mean time doing it in 3d lets me develop and show my friends some of my crazy ideas. :lol:


    The video is 550k (half a megabyte) right click the link and save as.

    https://soulkeeperproductions.com/baz/vi ... owtech.avi
     
  10. Franceyne

    Franceyne Junior Member

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    Hey there Bazman,

    Our home and property is run solely on solar power - no connection to the mains - washing machine, lights, stereo, television, DVD player, power tools, water pump to the header tank - with no problems. We have a John Morgan designed system which consists of:

    ~ a six panel solar array of 450 watts
    ~ 750 amp hour of battery storage
    ~ a 1.6KW sinewave inverter
    ~ a 0.75KW battery charger - which uses a petrol driven generator, not that we need this much, used once this winter.

    All our wiring runs are short, the panels are mounted near the battery bank and pull switches are used for all lighting adding to the efficiency.

    Cheers,
    Fran.
     
  11. bazman

    bazman Junior Member

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    Hi All

    Franceyne, how long have you had the system in and running?

    Len, speaking of cool rooms, in issue 93 (oct-dec05) of Renew magazine there was a story about a sustainable farmer and he had a strawbale coolroom with in his shed.

    Three strawbale walls built on a concrete slab in which semicircular pieces of 19mm poly pipe had been set, high tensile fencing wire was passed through the foundation and over the wall to tension the bales down, wall were plastered with a cement render and a cool room door and roof fitted. insulation greater than R7 and he only runs the drop in refrigeration unit at night, not during peak demand. Enough room for three and a half tonnes of fruit.

    I have found the Renew mag pretty good info on solar and other sustainable technology.
     
  12. Franceyne

    Franceyne Junior Member

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    Our house was built just over five years ago Bazman.

    We also have a cool cupboard - mudbrick walls, internal room with a polypipe coming from under the (external) water tank, underground and a vent taking hot air up through the roof - it works a treat.
     
  13. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    thanks spritegirl, will check that link asap, but what i am looking at is the size of these units?? and what about a seperate freezer and what size ie.,. litre storage capacity as in our needs are a 500 litre fridge and would need a medium size chest freezer the tucker box type square don't hold enough. being 12 volts they will run direct from the solar/wind supply source without an inverter in most cases bet they aint cheap and would wonder at length of service.

    thanks bazman, still an initial cost and effort in creating the cool room i guess but these are some of the things that need to be taken into the equation, could also convert one of those small shipping containers i have seen ones around 10 foot long, or convert one end of a 20 footer or even 40 footer using high grade styrene as used in boat eskies and a small air cond unit would then most likley keep it cool enough for fruit and vege's not so sure about meat though well over the mid to longer term that is between butchering needs. things like root cellars as well but there are many and varied logisitics to consider.

    need to think in rural we would want to feed ourselves as much as we could with our own efforts so storing 30 or 40 jap pumpkins, as many beans as will store, tomatoes, capsicums, cabbages, cauliflower, broccolli you name it hey ok we get enough of this stuff in season then there is the in between season as new crops start up. and for home grown grass fed meat poultry pork etc.,. need to be accommodated.

    with wind my thinking is take a gander at all those whirly birds on all thos roofs just to condition the captured air in wasted roof cavity space they are mostly truning most of the time, so we need wind catching equipment to harness small amounts of wind and convert that to small amounts of power amps over a continuous multiple system.

    and my mate with the ssolar uses his generator a lot more he is in high rain fall belt in sunshine coast hinterland and lots of cloud cover.

    franceyne what did your system cost if i may ask? and what are the limitations if you incorporated that into a normal wiring plan in a normal home? eg 6 fluor lights 16 power points not all used at the same time but stereo's, computers, tv's etc.,. all on standby, then there is hot water big big auto washing machine and the cold storage capacaties i mentioned earlier. then on the weekend hubby come handyman wants to do some welding anyway you get the picture.

    and at the end of the day there is still a whole lot of manufacturing needed.

    great thread this hey

    len :)
     
  14. bazman

    bazman Junior Member

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    I think a solar hot water system to replace the 30 year old tank would be a good start and gas to replace our old electric setup in the kitchen.

    Len if you do get a container, I think it would be worth getting as much of it under shade as possible. the cool room from above was inside a shed in the shade all the time.

    With the whirly birds, they would have very little touque to get power out of, I have seen some strange looking wind systems online. like these:
    https://www.fuellessflight.com/windturbine.htm

    https://www.genasyspowersystems.co.uk/Ropatec.htm

    https://www.tmawind.com/
     
  15. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    thanks baz,

    yes the container would have a shed over it or at least a roof and eastern and western sun protection.

    if you add solar hot water system into your solar power installation costs it could turn out quiet dear just for hot water, and on those overcast days most solar h/w systems have grid booster.

    yeh a friend of mine said that to me too but we realy need to think outsode the square and explore all possibilites. he got an old ceiling fan and held it into the wind and ascertained that you could not grab hold of it ans stop it but a full spinning spinner can be stopped with little effort. the difference i see is the old ceiling fan had an armature on it acting like a fly wheel, you getting where i am coming from?

    say we needed to fit some extra flat blades on top of a spinner to get more wind thrust could that work with an attached armature at the other end like a ceiling fan has. just think we will be stuck with expensive and high maintancnace propellors unless we come up with an alternative and in the 'burbs would the neighbours like you to have a noisy prop??? ok maybe even the spinner could be made bigger in diameter and still not be terribly expensive and not need a tower needing approval and maintanance.

    hot water is easy if your roof is built strong just run some black 3/4 fire house up there in close loops and a very small pump to cycle the water through a very heavily insualted storage tank. a black 44 gallon plastic drum on top of a shower house out in the sun will do for showers, someone in the estates just north of us has that yeh it's in their front yard can just see them scooting from the shower with a towel wrap back to the house hey lol :lol: anyhow simple affordable solution that lasts.

    we have bout 80 meters of 1.25 inch black pipe running on top of the ground from the bore it gives us water so hot enough for a bath that you need to run inthe morning to have a cool bath late in the arvo' all free and simple well almost, might not be terribly convenient.

    len
     
  16. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    g'day spritegirl,

    had a look at those fridges freezers they don't use sizing that relates to how we size a unit we might buy for our home eg.,. 520 litre fridge/freezer typical combo, and a 320 litre chest freezer we have a 160 it is too small to do much with.

    didn't get to looking at prices bet they aint cheap but?

    len
     
  17. Franceyne

    Franceyne Junior Member

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    Hey there Len,

    Our system is a small system, it cost around the $18,000 6 years ago.

    In our current system we have 12 fluoro lights and 8 double power points...we keep nothing on standby and only have the fan in the Rotaloo working all the time. Hot water is solar. Fridge is gas. The system handles the power tools fine (although we do not have a welder).

    The fellow that designed our system has set up his own home to handle every modern appliance, tool and gadget - it is kind of a show piece to illustrate what solar systems are capable of.

    Cheers,
    Fran.
     
  18. spritegal

    spritegal Junior Member

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    Len

    It may even be worth going with a gas fridge until such time as solar fridges are more affordable and/or solar panel configurations are more efficient..that might be 10 years away..I'm going to look into both and will post a comparison here on the forum

    spritegal :)
     
  19. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    thanks spritegirl,

    yes the cost of things has to be part of the considerations,as when they need replacing you are going to have to be able to afford.

    should imagine that a gas powered fridge of the capacity i mentioned could be somewhat more expensive than its mains powered counterpart from most regular retail outlets, likewise with the solar/12volt units. also as well lpg gas is more expensive than say if you where in a suburb that had natural gas available, so the extra cost would need to be factored into the overal cost of the system.

    in our case we where able to design and build an eco' warm-home/cool-home for $50,000aud and solar for fridges (small units) and general power was going to be around $30,000aud extra, not including a generator which would need to be able to power a welder on acreage and owning a tractor a necessary item. we where going to use gas for hotwater and cooking or an alternative black pipe on the roof for hot water but it all got expensive and we could see in the future being on a limited income we could have problems at replacement times.

    and putting money away to cover obsolescence app' $1200aud per annum and near that much again to cover the initial investment was out of the question for us. as that represents app' 10% of income alone.

    also for those who's lifestyle suits some systems, items of discussuion about what could have been done better or anything like that all helps the learning in these chats. there usualy always is a better way.

    we get a lot of wind here we reckoned as did a few otehr observers more than enough to keep batteries fully charge, but the wind generator people want extra money before they even begin to install so they can work out all that stuff that a wet finger can tell you hey chuckle.

    len :) :)
     
  20. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    Our solar guy talks about how much "lifestyle" you can buy for your dollar. He reckons that the bigger fridges are more cost effective to run on solar, (if you have enough panels and batteries) because they are almost always better insulated than the smaller fridges.
    Len, yes, batteries need replacement, and sometimes inverters and charge controllers will fail in the ten year range (sometimes they last a lot longer too), but I think many solar panels for sale today are guaranteed to last 20 years. The panels is where most of your money is.
    As I said before, you add up the true cost of mains electricity, and solar is a bargain.
     

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