Singapore Daisy

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by eco4560, Oct 11, 2009.

  1. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    I have an increasing problem with Singapore daisy. I'm on a largish residential block. I moved in April this year, and had a landscaper clear all the vegetation (apart from the big trees) and mulch heavily. The Singapore daisy is creeping through the fence line from a neighbours place, and looks like it will set flower soon. So I have some questions -

    Friend or foe? Is there ANY use for this stuff in a permaculture system and I should therefore tolerate it, or is it an outright pest and needs to go?

    How to eradicate it? I've started pulling it out by hand and putting it in the rubbish bin, but 1. it is a pity to loose organic matter from my system and 2. it feels like it grows faster than I can pull it out.

    I'm wondering if I can make a compost tea out of it and pour it back onto the rest undiluted. I think it was Purple Pear who suggested the same for comfrey? Would that work? Could I use it as a dilute tea elsewhere in the garden? And once it has sat and stewed for a few weeks would it then be safe to toss in the compost heap without fear that I'll spread it further?

    What about solarizing it? I gather you just put it into a black plastic rubbish bag and leave it sit in the the sun for a few weeks. Would that make it safe to go in the compost?
     
  2. permasculptor

    permasculptor Junior Member

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    Re: Singapore Daisy

    generally a foe although it is very useful as a last ditch erosion control device. solarizing or complete immersion will work.
     
  3. Geoff Lawton

    Geoff Lawton Administrator Staff Member

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    Re: Singapore Daisy

    It is great in a food forest as living mulch, trees love to grow out of it.

    Put in into a fast compost and it will become good fertilizer, search berkley compost on this site.

    Heavy duty mulch with newspaper and cardboard very thick after whipper snipping very low to the ground water well and add a thick layer of manure then the sheet mulch, put 300mm of straw on top and plant your desired garden.
     
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  4. Batz

    Batz Junior Member

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    Re: Singapore Daisy

    It is a problem in places around here, land-care cover it with black plastic for several months, this kills it completely.
    The dead plants are then decomposed back into the soil.

    Batz
     
  5. Geoff Lawton

    Geoff Lawton Administrator Staff Member

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    Re: Singapore Daisy

    The "Problem is the Solution" and is a great living mulch for growing any kind of forest, creating fungal dominated soil and is shaded out by the trees latter.

    The rare fruit growers of North Queensland fine it an invaluable asset as a weed suppressant and their weeds are some of the worst.

    Nature has no prejudice in including hard working immigrants.
     
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  6. butchasteve

    butchasteve Junior Member

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    Re: Singapore Daisy

    Working in landcare i would advise that it be eradicated as it is extremely hard to control and remove and is high risk of spreading into natural areas.

    while perhaps in your garden it has no real negative effect, when in natural areas it outcompetes all native groundcover and prevents a healthy understory.

    some of the arguments above can be likened the that of lantana which provides great habitat for native fauna.. unfortunately it out competes and destroys the understory for our flora..

    singapore daisy is a declared pest, and as such should be removed and eradicated where possible. to not do so would be highly irresponsible.

    there are a number of ways of doing so..

    a heavy spray with Brushoff can do the trick but if it is intertwined with a food forest you may not only have contaminated fruit but dead fruit trees.

    my preffered method is a 4 step process
    brushcut to the ground
    wait 3 weeks for reshoots
    tactically spray reshoots with brushoff/glyphosate mix
    1 week later put 10cm of mulch over the top and monitor for reshoots

    of course if you are against the use of herbicide you have your work cut out.. removal would entail not only cutting and removing that above ground stuff but also the scarification and disposal of the top 2-3inches of soil to ensure complete removal.

    good luck.

    to those who think planting singapore daisy is a good way to control erosion (it is), please consider some of the native myoporums or clumped plantings of lomandra (histrix or lonlifolia) otherwise there are a great number of other natives that can do the job with a bit of research and effort..
     
  7. purplepear

    purplepear Junior Member

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    Re: Singapore Daisy

    As would removing it without planting a ground cover to replace it.
     
  8. Geoff Lawton

    Geoff Lawton Administrator Staff Member

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    Re: Singapore Daisy

    I find it to be very safe and non invasive as have many truly sustainable practitioners.

    Hard working immigrants can be land carers too.

    The best are those that do not use toxic chemical insults to the environment which is obviously not land care.

    Weeds only occupy damaged niches in the environment as a healing bandage of repair.

    This is my personal opinion and I cannot tolerate the use of and toxic chemicals for any reasons.

    Sorry
     
  9. butchasteve

    butchasteve Junior Member

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    Re: Singapore Daisy

    thats a given, my apologies.
     
  10. butchasteve

    butchasteve Junior Member

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    Re: Singapore Daisy

    Pardon??

    only occupy damaged niches as a healing bandage? what have you been smoking? show me some valid scientific argument or evidence to back that up and perhaps you may not be viewed as a nut but otherwise.... seriously???? are you a WUM..

    I am new to this forum but singapore daisy destroys any chance of native groundcover, overbears natural riparian zones and is an all round pest... i came here for advice on my garden/landcare work... i understand the reluctance to use chemicals but really, are all permaculturists this naive..

    take a look at some of the lands around the place. the natural landscape is being over-run in some places by invasive species, killing all in its path (see rubbervine for eg.) and you tell me its a niche???
     
  11. Geoff Lawton

    Geoff Lawton Administrator Staff Member

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    Re: Singapore Daisy

    Dear Butchasteve

    The evidence is quite clear if you study succession and way that natural systems pioneer into climax.

    There are no weeds in a complete ecosystems that are of a stable intrinsic size as there are no empty niches, weeds only occupy empty niches which local endemic species do not have the ability to repair the degree of UNNATURAL DAMAGE that has occurred.

    To use an analogy, you do not have a headache because your body has a deficiency of aspirin, just like you do not have weeds because your environment has a deficiency of herbicide.

    The value of fast carbon pathways such as singapore daisy, sweet potato or pig face in arid landscapes, books such as Invasion Biology: Critique of a Pseudoscience give plenty of evidence.

    Please view https://www.jlhudsonseeds.net/NativesVsExotics.htm

    Many people have used the vigor of fast growing and easily extended ground covers to change the soil biology to a fungal dominant soil biology which is exactly what is needed to grow trees as the forest grows on a fallen forest and you need fungus to break down the wood mulch. This allows for an assembly of pioneer species to be planted that advance your system to a climax ecosystem. You have then used the problem as the solution to fast track the repair process used by nature, and you can choose your ecosystem climax required.

    If you would like to look at https://permaculture.org.au/course-speci ... irections/ on our booking form for course and Institute Policies
    " Incoming students should be aware that there is a NO DRUG, NO ALCOHOL policy at Zaytuna Farm and that this rule is enforced. We also ask all students, staff, interns, volunteers and guests to act with good behaviour and respect to others. "

    One of the main reasons for the NO DRUG, NO ALCOHOL POLICY is that we find that people who use such vices have trouble managing their anger and we do not have time for such anger and arrogance as we are involved in real action and real research helping people in real need.

    I am typing this from a Palestinian refugee village in the Dead Sea Valley in Jordan where we are developing a new demonstration site education center and have just finished teaching a Permaculture Design Certificate course.

    You do not need to use language like this sir:

    " what have you been smoking? show me some valid scientific argument or evidence to back that up and perhaps you may not be viewed as a nut but otherwise.... seriously???? are you a WUM.."

    If you do not like the way I have, and others like Peter Andrews https://www.naturalsequencefarming.com/ have found through on ground long term research, trials and testing that many weeds can be extremely useful to built ecosystem stability, carbon in the soil and farm productivity. Thats fine and if your are interested in our work and have the courage to think and act out of the conventional box that does not appear to be working we are prepare to discuss this matter further.
     
  12. butchasteve

    butchasteve Junior Member

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    Re: Singapore Daisy

    My apologies, and thanks for your reply.

    Your work in Jordan is commendable, i think i have seen work like this on TED or another website and there certainly a great urgent need for this kind of thing, particularly for the displaced palastinians whose water quality and ecosystems in their homeland are beyond belief. I do similar work (on a much smaller scale) with schools in the indigenous regions of far north queensland.

    I shall look at the links and books available, and will look up some more literature on the subject as well. In my experience i have never come across an issue that needed to be resolved by allowing noxious weeds to spread. quite the opposite, noxious weeds have always been a hindrance to what one is trying to achieve. The only exception to this is allowing Cooch grass to cover mulched areas around tree plantings to prevent further soft weed growth like cobblers peg, goatweed etc.

    Still the issue remains, that are our natural areas really lacking that niche, or are natives being outcompeted? I can understand the tolerance of something of the nature of singapore daisy, if there was no other viable native option, and that without it the land would be significantly damaged by erosion or something else. There are a great number of native plants that could fill the niche mentioned by the OP, I suggest that these would be a far better option.

    The reason for my overreaction and serious question of your methodology is more about your willingness to advise people that weeds are the way forward rather than an emergency option. While yes this forum is here to all voices, is there not a responsibility, particularly from a professional like yourself to temper their responses (pot/kettle i know) when advising people to use methods that could be potentially damaging to native ecosystems?

    If you re-read the OP, would you advise him/her to use the singapore daisy as you have pointed out that it can be? Or would you suggest planting native groundcover and understory species to create the same microclimate and deal with the singaopre daisy? I am curious..

    Perhaps my responses (one most definitely, and as you aptly pointed out was alcohol fuelled) are being unessecarily emotional as a large portion of my life has been spent removing said invasive species to regenerate areas. Believe me, there are not many who can claim to spend 8 hours a day grubbing out thickets of weeds just to give native flora a chance and not be left with some distaste for invasive species. Once again my apologies.
     
  13. Kym & Georgie Kruse

    Kym & Georgie Kruse Junior Member

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    Re: Singapore Daisy

    As mentioned above, it can be replaced and we've had success in removing all trace of SD by slashing very low, manured, sheet mulched and hay mulched followed by numerous sweet potato cutting which grew vigorously over the wet season and smothered out the SD. At the school garden program we run, we have in fact used SD as the ground cover component of the banana circle to great effect. The soil is kept moist and protected from the tropical rain and with regular slashing the soil is becoming very black & rich indeed. We may in time use sweet potato again but certainly no poisons, the use of which destroys soil microbiology and would no doubt affect the amazing tasting bananas the kids enjoy. Another benefit of the SD at the school was noticed a few weeks ago, when a rather upset and disturbed young girl sat in amongst it, under the shade of the bananas and made a Singapore Daisy chain as a necklace from the lovely yellow flowers. We could have used a common glysophate poison to wipe it out, but we enjoy the organic bananas, daisy chains are very therapeutic, healthy soil microbiology is the foundation of civilization and we really enjoy having the green tree frogs around too. The little tadpoles don't do so well drinking systemic herbicides. BTW what is a WUM?
     
  14. butchasteve

    butchasteve Junior Member

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    Re: Singapore Daisy

    WUM = wind up merchant

    it appears i may be the WUM though unintentionally. never mind, nothing like some healthy discussion.

    Glypho won't kill singapore daisy, glossy leaves. It needs the good and nasty stuff. :) stuff you wouldn't want around children or food really.

    have you ever considered some of the native alternatives to SD though? they have much prettier flowers, and attract the butterflies and birds too.. just a thought..

    Amusingly enough a mate of mine just emailed me to tell me he has a new DVD for me.. Geoff Lawntons.... Coincidences hey, bless em.
     
  15. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    Re: Singapore Daisy

    LOL :)
    As long as they come by plane, and not, leaky boat?

    Singapore daisy (Sphagneticola trilobata) has many medicinal uses in its own country.
    https://books.google.com.au/books?id=c8r ... 20&f=false
    These include analgesic, anti-septic and to reduce fevers/temperature.
    The anti-pain effects must be strong as it is recommended for childbirth, toothache and amenorrhea.

    A decoction (a big handful boiled in a liter of water)is used for insect bites.

    https://www.issg.org/database/species/se ... s=&lang=EN
     
  16. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    Re: Singapore Daisy

    G'day butchasteve

    Welcome to the PRI Forum.

    While you are at it, perhaps you might like to extend your reading to the debate about Willow (Salix spp.) removal verses managment in Spring Creek (Hepburn Springs, Victoria, Australia) for yet another example of "an issue that needed to be resolved by allowing noxious weeds to spread"?

    You can find the saga here:

    https://www.holmgren.com.au/ click on "Spring Ck"

    Cheerio, Mark.
     
  17. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    Re: Singapore Daisy

    To Geoff / Nadia and others who have been doing this forever. Maybe I'm still not seeing the problem as the solution...

    What will happen to the Singapore Daisy as time goes on? Do I simply ignore it and wait for it to do what it has to - presuming that it will then go of its own accord? I have visions of my whole yard disappearing under it!

    If it does have uses in the garden (I probably wouldn't use it medicinally - no childbirth planned for me any more!) how do I use it best? I have 3 large garbage bags full of it so far - sitting in the sun on top of the rain water tank to solarize. I figure anything that grows that vigorously will be full of stuff that is useful in compost. What would be good to plant in amongst it to get an advantage from it?
     
  18. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    Re: Singapore Daisy

    Eco,

    I have a small natural shade house, a creeper covered frame, that has a couple of 10l & 20l containers in it that I cant remember putting there on purpose. Now that I have them there I would use them as an addition to any shade house as a humidifier, frog habitat, bird drinker etc. I also sometimes submerge ant affected pots or those plants that missed the water. It is a handy reminder as to the water requirements of the shade house as the levels can subside fast in hot dry weather. If the buckets are full then the rest of the plants are ok.

    I dump old cuttings, weeds, bits of paper, cardboard, dead plants etc into those and let them rot and then dump the contents on the compost heap or in the garden. I dont have Singapore Daisy anywhere in my garden out of choice but as a soil cover, watcher catcher/disperser it is certainly vigorous enough. I just have other plants that I would rather use.

    Maybe an overcrop of pumpkins might slow it down a bit.

    Cheers,

    ho-hum
     
  19. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    Re: Singapore Daisy

    G'day All

    Crikey Mike, watch out the local 'mozzie police' don't come and DDT your your 10 and 20lt frog habitats. But I guess the tadpoles keep the mozzies down, hey? And give the birds something to eat, as well as drink? Isn't the web of life a beautiful thing to behold? We are so lucky...

    G'day Eco, mind if I but in here? Holmgren once said: "You'll never get rid of weeds. Best we can hope for, is a better class of weed". Those 3-bags full you have, why not start of a barrel of weed tea? And for the rampent buggers that are threatening to take over your yard, why not try the old trick of laying down a solarisation blanket in patches, and then grow 'a better class of weed' in the bare patches that result? Ho-hum's pumkins sound like a great idea. My Dutchy WWOOFer mates once told me that: "Back home in Dutchyland, pumpkin is considered a weed, and the fruit is only good for feeding to the pigs". Needless to say, I served them up a lot of pumkin fritters after hearing that... and they loved them! Lots of little steps can create one giant leap.

    Peace and love to you all (especially my Dutchy mates, where ever you are), Markus.
     
  20. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    Re: Singapore Daisy

    Mark,

    We do feed our finches. As a kid I owned 'finches'. When we came to our property all those years ago it was because we could have wild finches. I live on the tropical savannah and home to many many finch species.

    We often feed about 2 dozen double-bar or owl finches at this hot time of year. Today, I wastefully set a sprinkler running throughout the day on a hot spot and when I went out at 4o'clock there were at least 70-80 owl finches and another 30 or 40 mixed finches, sitting in the fence and flying round a water bowl like huge wasps. Typically, they abused me for intruding and fled..... for about 30 seconds.... and then came piling back [and further tsked tsked me] to see what I was doing.

    Sometimes living on a nice piece of dirt is not all about growing food.!!!! Today was one for me...one of those days you live for.

    cheers,

    ho-hum
     

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