Shamanic Permaculture: Healing Our Inner And Outer Landscapes / Peru

Discussion in 'Jobs, projects, courses, training, WWOOFing, volun' started by SharonJoy, Mar 5, 2011.

  1. gmpm1

    gmpm1 Junior Member

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    In the aforementioned videos, Bill tells an anecdote about his visit to Findhorn. At one point, he manages to sneak away from his escorts to have a look around. He comes upon a supply shed, opens it up, and finds it to be stock full of chemical pesticides. His comments on Findhorn in general are hilarious and I invite everyone to listen to them.
     
  2. gmpm1

    gmpm1 Junior Member

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    Please provide an example of "dumping." I'm at a loss to understand what you mean.
     
  3. gmpm1

    gmpm1 Junior Member

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    I guess you didn't follow through with your decision. ;-)
     
  4. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Actually I did. That comment was in reference to the discussion PP and I were having and I decided to not continue down that track any further.

    In the world view of you and Bill Mollison. Others see it differently.

    I'm not sure what the point of the Mollison anecdote about Findhorn is. Are you saying that because Mollison doesn't like the place or what it does that it has no value and shouldn't exists? Because that is how you are coming across.

    I haven't seen the dvd but the way you are telling the story comes across as Mollison using the chemical story to further his own negative feelings about the metaphysical. By all means criticise Findhorn, but at least do it in a credibly way. If you think Findhorn are liars and have been using chemicals all this time, then show us some evidence other than Mollison's anecdote.

    btw, don't get me wrong. I think that there's plenty to critique Findhorn on. I just don't think Mollison is a saint either ;-)
     
  5. gmpm1

    gmpm1 Junior Member

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    So you can't teach Maoris any scientifically based subject without also teaching metaphysics?? Unethical?? They can't learn from a different world view while at the same time honoring their own heritage?? That simply flies in the face of evidence from native peoples all over the world who manage to respect their traditional cultures and customs while studying for advanced degrees in a variety of academic fields. There are Maori medical doctors and scientists of all varieties. I thought the condescending notion of the "noble savage" went out a hundred years ago.

    And BTW, we don't really know how the "extra time" for that PDC is being spent, so it would not be wise to speculate.
     
  6. gmpm1

    gmpm1 Junior Member

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    Permaculture is not a Rorschach test in which you read anything into it that you want. There are things that demonstrably are part of it and things that demonstrably are not. I know that being inclusive is sooo politically correct these days, but shamanism? Please. Someone commented that Permaculture is a "big tent." Well, big tents can collapse more easily than small tents sometimes, which I think is exactly the reason that those at the center of Permaculture are so annoyed at the diluting of the field with these metaphysical tie-ins. If Permaculture is everything, then it's nothing. I would argue that it's simply too important a discipline for it to be diluted and co-opted by such tertiary activities.

    About Findhorn, the message I think Mollison is saying in the videos, is that the idea that their "spirituality" has anything at all to do with their ability to grow vegetables is complete BS. Not only that but even going down that route leads to hypocritical practices (e.g., the chemical biocides) designed to protect their reputation and self-concept at the expense of the truth.
     
  7. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Looks to me like you're the one being condescending. Of course Maori are capable of learning within different world views, they're adept at that and do it all the time out of necessity. I was talking about Maori *teaching* permaculture or running courses that bring in outside teachers. Maori, culturally, are going to included practices in that that you would find abhorrent. You seem to be saying that they can teach/run courses as long as they leave their culture at the door. We know from other fields that are based within the dominant culture paradigm that this is bad for Maori eg in the health sector, allowing Maori to include their own health and medicine practices ensures better results than forcing a solely western medical model on them. That seems true of most indigenous people I've come across.
     
  8. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    There is a difference between PDCs and permaculture. And there are degrees of difference between 'permaculture is set in stone by the Mollisons' and 'permaculture is everything'. I happen to think that the PDCs should be protected and not diluted to include everything. But I can't see a problem with teaching a PDC alongside other tools. Shamanism is just a tool, a very useful one. And it gives us access to knowledge that Pc doesn't. It also takes us into relationship with the land in ways that Pc doesn't.

    I'm hardly likely the take the views of a hardcore athiest on spirituality seriously. I have huge respect for Mollison's body of knowledge on Pc. But if he doesn't understand spirituality or metaphysics then he doesn't get to be a credible expert in that field.
     
  9. gmpm1

    gmpm1 Junior Member

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    What is the difference between Maori teaching or learning in Permaculture courses in regard to their culture? Why would you think their culture is an obstacle to learning Permaculture?? This is not only condescension, but also doubletalk.
     
  10. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Their culture isn't an obstacle to learning or teaching Pc. Your ideologically driven restrictions that they would have to leave their spiritually embued culture at the door if they want to teach is the obstacle. It's not double talk at all, and I can't tell if you are twisting what I am saying deliberately or from lack of undersanding. If you don't understand what I am talking about, I'd suggest spending some dedicated time with whoever your local indigenous peoples are and they might show you ;-)
     
  11. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    For instance. If a PDC was being taught on a marae here, there would be certain protocols involved that are part of being on a marae. One of them is karakia/prayer. According to your beliefs this is not ok to happen, because PDCs must be a spiritually free zone.
     
  12. gmpm1

    gmpm1 Junior Member

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    So now you're being condescending toward me in addition to the Maoris? Hilarious. Perhaps the way forward is to deal with your assumptions. Why would Maoris have to leave their culture at the door to teach Permaculture? How does the "ideology" of Permaculture, if that's what you want to call it, contaminate Maori culture and preclude its teaching by them? What Maori practices do you think I would find abhorrent and why?

    Neither science nor Permaculture belong to the West, by the way, merely because it was "codified" there. All cultures are welcome to participate.
     
  13. gmpm1

    gmpm1 Junior Member

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    Where else would you like to include spiritual practices, in mathematics? Biology? I wonder what it is it about Permaculture that leads you to think that it is an appropriate vessel for teaching spirituality.
     
  14. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    I think maths and biology could probably benefit from a spiritual perspective. Einstein was a scientist who had a sense of the metaphysical. That doesn't have to water down or corrupt the hard science though. Besides, it's not a fair comparison. Better to compare the practice of Pc with the practice of something like medicine - they contain and are based on hard sciences, but not limited to them. And I've already given an example about that.

    But that's not my point. My point is that banning anything spiritual from PDCs means that many indigenous people can't teach from within their own culture. The idea that hard science has to be separate from metaphysics in order to be valid is a culture belief, one not shared universally.
     
  15. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

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    I agree Pebble,

    I think of it as Permanent-Culture, not Permanent-Science. I know originally it was thought of as Permanent-Agriculture. But I think part of the reason we have come to this present state of unsustainable Agriculture is exactly because it became distanced from the spiritual, the cultural, the local.

    This debate pops up every now and then and it seems to go around in the same circle. My personal feelings are that unless Permaculture does embrace aspects of local culture, unless it actively encourages it's integration into peoples spiritual lives then it will only come about when it is too late and there is an economic and environmental imperative. If it becomes limited to hard-science then permaculture itself will be hard, and probably not permanent at all.
     
  16. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    I have never thought of Shamanism and Permaculture in the same sentence.
    Leaving aside the "spiritual' aspects, which i think is a personal choice, I do see some connections.
    A shaman usually has a close affinity with all the plants growing around him and knows the many healing uses of them all. The shaman was usually the source of tribal medicine. Some shamans say they get their knowledge from the gods or the plants, usually while talking to them after taking certain mind altering plants. Who's to say they are not right. Certainly most shamans have a wealth of herbal knowledge.
    We could do worse than remember that many of the plants growing around us, including garden ornamentals, have medical uses. Plants like plumbago, hydrangea, gardenia or weeds like privet and lantana.
     
  17. purplepear

    purplepear Junior Member

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    Nature itself - the basis of Permaculture - is definatly not into hard science, the soil is still being revealed by science and mistakes are made, egos and funding massaged. To rely on science alone is fraught with limiting factors and I say that life with out a bit of magic is diminished.
     
  18. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    From the movie "Thor"
    Jane Foster: Describe exactly what happened to you last night.
    Thor: Your ancestors called it magic...
    [Thor skims through a book on Norse mythology]
    Thor: ...but you call it science. I come from a land where they are one and the same.
     
  19. purplepear

    purplepear Junior Member

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    That's where I live MA. I havn't met Thor but I may bump into him in the pub one day.
     
  20. gmpm1

    gmpm1 Junior Member

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    I think some people are misstating the point I initially made and then vehemently criticizing the misstatement. Nice work if you can get it, but waaay off the point.

    To reiterate, the position stated in the aforementioned videos is that PDC's should not TEACH metaphysics. Bill and Geoff's comment was, if I may paraphrase, that some PDC's are teaching metaphysics along with Permaculture and that that's wrong. That's not what Permaculture is. Permaculture is based on science. Period.

    Now anyone can agree or disagree, or define Permaculture any way they want, I don't care. But I think it is obviously of interest and worthy of serious consideration if the very founder and key driver in the field says this. I happen to agree with it because I don't want to see Permaculture become identified in the public mind as some bunch of new-age, pie-in-the-sky, utopian, waay-out-there, fringe crazies that is not worthy of serious thought and which has no relevance to them. And, I don't want to see some people/movements/philosophies/religions, etc., latching on to Permaculture in order to gain credibility for their own agendas.
     

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