sense and sensibilty charity and humanity

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by gardenlen, Jul 7, 2013.

  1. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    I utterly disagree.

    Geoff Lawton has turned poor land quality into thriving farms.

    IDEP Foundation
    out of Bali works with people living in rainforests, which has notoriously poor soil.

    Bill M. in Africa checking out the Permaculture he started years prior, again, in a very poor soil place.

    I could keep going on with examples, but my point is that the people who really really need it have soil that is not in the best of shape, myself included.
     
  2. Unmutual

    Unmutual Junior Member

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    You know, there should be a search engine for "degraded, overgrazed, etc." land for sale. I'd prefer a piece of property that needs rehabilitation rather than that "perfect" plot. Though I guess all land needs rehabilitation these days, at least arguably. If I lived in one of those south eastern states, I'd love to buy a local patch of desert to see what I can do. Some of that desert land is pretty damn cheap!

    FYI, the new posting software is kind of weird. I hope I get used to it soon.
     
  3. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    hey bill,

    did my latest post get lost in the revamp?

    thank you

    len
     
  4. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    if we all agreed totally on everything there would be nothing to chat about surely?

    anyhow paka' we have also improved land with a gentle within parameters method called common sense, many other around have also done well no accolades for those but! fellow up darwin way used on ground vermicomposting in rotation with chook house he got good results.

    len
     
  5. mouseinthehouse

    mouseinthehouse Junior Member

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    Sitting here, in tears, so ashamed at what I have witnessed our government sign into policy today. Can't rightly put into words the level of contempt I feel for these politicians. Christine Milne made a wonderful speech today in the Senate against this policy. Feeling in deep despair at what we have become. Not in my name RUDD.
     
  6. annette

    annette Junior Member

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    Having lived in PNG in Moresby and Lae I have to say this is a deliberate attempt to stop the boats no matter what. You can't live there safely unless you are in a compound and have security 24 hours and even then it is dicey. Everyone knows it. Manus is not so bad but if they are settling people anywhere, god help them. We had a secure compound with rape gates on the upper level in a compound and still we had intrusions. People will not get on boats if they think they will end up there. I witnessed some pretty horrific incidents while I was there.
     
  7. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    Out of the frying pan into the fire. It's a terrible way to treat any desperate family escaping persecution.
     
  8. annette

    annette Junior Member

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    And no one is even asking how this will affect the PNG people. They are very conservative and still have beliefs that may not mesh very well with people from different cultures. It is still a very tribal society based on kinship relationships. Any mass influx of 'different' cultures will have a massive impact depending on the numbers. Most different nationalities there are involved in business and so are granted a particular grace, be it chinese, Australian, Malaysian whatever. From the places I have been any influx of 'outsiders' in any particular areas is going to be a problem. I see big problems.
     
  9. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Senior Member

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    I doubt there will be many going to PNG once the word gets out.
    It might actually work
    K Rudd V2.0 is claiming he will increase the non boat intake of refugees
    It could depoliticise the situation and stop people risking their lives in boats,if it included an increase in intake of refugees and speedy processing it could actually be a positive.

    Time will tell,
    Meanwhile there's an election to be won and the irrational fear of boats is real in the voters mind.,the media and the Liberal party put it there and fed it up, into the monster it is today.
     
  10. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    Shame the Australian Government does not follow its own advice:

    https://www.smartraveller.gov.au/zw-cgi/view/Advice/Papua_New_Guinea

    The people of PNG need our support so they can increase their own levels of health and education. They don't need our filthy money in order to become our jailers, which will only lead to further corruption within their society.

    People seeking refuge and a better life in Australia need us to welcome them with open arms. They don't need nor deserve to be greeted with and detained by armed military/police/prison personnel.

    Take the budget allocation of this latest half-baked scheme and split it 50-50: half to genuine health and education programs for the people of PNG, and half to a legitimate and speedy processing and resettlement program for refugees here in Australia.

    If we must continue to rape our country of its natural and non-renewable resources, at least share the proceeds of our ill-gotten gains in order to reduce human misery rather than increasing it.
     
  11. 9anda1f

    9anda1f Administrator Staff Member

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    Spotted this on the news feed this morning and thought it worth the read:

    https://www.theage.com.au/federal-p...people-here-are-the-facts-20130718-2q5rv.html
     
  12. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    you didn't point to any facts bill?

    i still say we need to adopt a better set of ethics, humanitarian ones to say the least, people who come here must come on the understanding of what we stand for and must integrate like past migrants did, there are no exclusive german, polish, swedish or russian communities with their own shops, school legal assistance, let alone their own churches. seems now people live among us but not with us.

    also until we fly these people in using their money they pay smugglers with, and begin their processing while they are in the air, and turn those few who need to be turned back when they land, that is onto another plane to their homeland or another safe country, then what they cost will continue to escalate, and we will be seen as a cruel society, and make the passage by air the only way to get here, even if we fly them from indonesia, now we have conned the papuan's to take them? what next feed them to the croc's. our border patrol and navy gets life real easy well fed and comfortable, we don't need to pay for them to have tropical cruises.

    len
     
  13. annette

    annette Junior Member

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    I just don't know where these people will be resettled in PNG if found to be genuine refugees.

    1. For a start there is no accommodation that is fit for decent living that is affordable. Rents in all parts of PNG are astronomical. The cost of electricity is also.

    2. Most of the land is owned by PNG nationals under native title and is leased out. Frequent land disputes erupt in violence.

    3. No amount of foreign aid is going to change this. You can pour money into health and education but unless you have enforceable governance on this, and I hate to say this, the money 'goes missing'. Various Australian governments have tried to stop this to no avail. You wouldn't put your dog in the hospital in Port Moresby.

    4. PNG is a very Christian society. If you think Australians have a problem with Islam, this is nothing compared to PNG. Considering the majority of asylum seekers are Moslem, this is a recipe for disaster. They will not allow moslems to live with them.

    5. There are some deeply entrenched superstitions and they still kill women for being witches (or so they think). A pig dies suddenly and if someone accuses you, you are toast. If you have HIV have sex with a virgin and you are cured. Condoms are used to carry water not to put on for sex. You accidentally run over a pig and keep going honey or you could get hurt. In the highlands I witnessed retaliatory burning of villages over a stolen chicken.

    I had to have 2 security guards with me just to go to the market, one in front and one at the back.

    How on earth are people supposed to live there if resettled? They can't. It will stop the boats. Or they will go to PNG and hire a boat and get to north Queensland somehow.
     
  14. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    Yes, Annette, all very correct. However, they only way that PNG is ever going to get rid of the corruption that keeps by far the majority of its people ignorant of even the basic realities of the modern world, is through education. Granted, large bags of money handed to government 'officials' in PNG will not cut it. However, if university programs here in Australia were fully funded to provide the 1-or-2% of PNG people that make it tertiary level education the opportunity to learn, and then take that knowledge back home - i.e. teach the teacher - than we may see a slow improvement in the overall situation. Until such time, superstition and corruption will prevail, resulting in an extremely dangerous, not to mention unhealthy place for people to live - for both local and foreigner alike (as the Government of Australia's own travel advisory note suggests).

    Ergo, people seeking refuge and a better way of life must be welcomed in Australia. In the regional city I reside, work and study in, at the last Census, just over 86,000 people were enumerated as living in the urban area. Of these people, the top response to LOTE question was Karen, followed by Mandarin, Italian, Cantonese and Greek. In other words, 3 out of the 5 most prevalent languages spoken in Bendigo other than English are Asian. And the most prevalent is spoken by the Karen people, all of which have resettled here as refugees and are now making great contributions to our wider community. The Karen people, just like by far the majority of all refugees coming to Australia, deserve our compassion and kindness. They do not deserve to be turned away at gunpoint, and to be jailed on an island that can barely cater to its own people, let alone an influx of culturally-diverse people.
     
  15. annette

    annette Junior Member

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    Yes Mark, education is important. The Australian government has sponsored thousands of PNG citizens over the years to university, TAFE and PHDs and continues to do so. But just because people are educated, it doesn't mean they can't be corrupted or still adhere to superstitious beliefs. Just like anyone else. Once you are educated, there are very strong wontok ties to share in the bounty and ways to get more are always sought. That's because most live in poverty and who could blame them. Their traditional way of life has been blown out of the water, their environment wrecked in many places, the resources boom has not trickled down to the people and they feel ripped off, understandably.

    We have a tendency in the west to think we know best and assume that our ways are comprehended. For example many years ago, PNG power negotiated with traditional landholders to lease land in Yonki to set up a hydro plant to supply power to the highlands. Easy enough. PNG power paid a lot of many to landholders and all was well. The kids of these landholders grew up and asked for their share. As far as they are concerned this land is theirs after their elders die and so they should be paid as well if they cannot have the land to do with as they please. PNG power said no so a group with AK47s stormed the plant, took it over, took everyone hostage and shut down power to the highlands until PNG power coughed up more money. A lot involved in the talks were very well educated but that didn't change the cultural attitudes and beliefs in regards to it all.

    I don't have the answer. The same situation exists in other pacific island countries. Maybe after a long slow process things will improve. When you start mucking around in other peoples culture and lifestyle there are always going to be problems. And lets face it, most foreigners are there to make as much money as possible and the locals know it and resent it.
     
  16. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Senior Member

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    All communities set up their little enclaves.
    Every biggish city has a China Town
    Richmond used to be Greek its now Vietnamese
    The Barrossa was German
    Carlton was Jewish and then became Italian
    Australias first Mosque was built in the 1800s
    Muslim traders were trading with the Aboriginals well before white man got here.
    Diversity is fantastic give it too many over white bread 1950s Australia any day of the week.
     
  17. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    Whataya mean? 1950s Australia was a great time and place to live - especially if you where a white, middle class, middle aged, heterosexual, Christian male ;).

    Seriously, a global polyculture (a commune of communes) of humanity with absolutely no hard boundaries is what I'd like to see.
     
  18. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    g'day mark,

    well i for one wasn't middle aged, middle class in the 50's, council rental home and a push bike for dad to ride to work on.

    anyhow that may all be a continuation of waffle, surely australia needs to come together as a community united, before we can even think of a global community.

    len
     
  19. Unmutual

    Unmutual Junior Member

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    Community union doesn't happen, if it really ever did. If it does sprout up, it's usually short lived. People may come together after a disaster, or surrounding something the government/corporate world did(ie: adversity), but that's about it. I'm not saying that we need to form a community of like-minded people, because the lack of external intellectual/artistic/cultural influences can be a problem too. It's difficult for us to find a balance. We have the intelligence as a species, but we do seem to lack wisdom. Every immigrant should have to take a class on the original cultures of a land, and this can include indigenous people like the British taking a class in Celtic and Britannic myths and legends(ie: pre-Roman).

    Before I go off in a ramble(just in case I didn't already!), it really is amazing how far flung is the Roman influence. I'll have to think about it some more, because that may actually be where everything started to go wrong. Not that there weren't people before the Romans that wanted to take over the world and change it "for the better".
     
  20. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    It does in an intentional community, by definition. ;)

    Of course, it's not all beer and skittles in Mandala Town, and occasionally we have to set up the ring (metaphorically, or otherwise) and let people fight it out. But by and large, most people get along quite well with most other people, most of the time. Why? The answer is both simple and profound; we have a shared vision! This is what individual nation states, indeed global humanity lacks, a shared goal. How do we make it happen? It's a slow process, but like everything in this human construct we call 'the world', it all starts with free, universal and secular education. For only when we all understand (but not necessarily agree) where each other is coming from, all 7-plus billion of us, will we ever have a chance of knowing where it is that we want, indeed need to go.

    Back to the OP issue:

    The UNHCR has released a statement in response to the Australia-PNG deal. They were not consulted.

    Human Rights Watch have released a fairly comprehensive and recent (2013) report on PNG. It's a sad indictment on PNG's largely corrupt governance structures, and the multi-nationals that continue to rape its land, both at the expense of the health and education of its people.

    The sad fact of the matter is, some PNG nationals are fleeing their own country because of human rights abuses committed against them, and in turn have to seek asylum in Australia as refugees. What are we going to do, send them back? Yes, that's right, in order for PNG nationals to seek asylum in Australia, they have to make their way here by boat because the UNHCR closed its PNG office late last year. Also, while you are there checking out the report I just linked to, have a look at the total regional UNHCR budget expenditure for 2013 ... $14,840,986. Yes, that's right, a lousy $15-million. Is it any wonder people riot rather than rot in detention centres waiting to get here? $15-million per year (for the entire East Asia and Pacific region) - or the amount Gina's wealth increases every 7.5-hours. Madness exemplified!
     

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