safe/unsafe glyphosate use

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by Luke B, Dec 12, 2004.

  1. earthbound

    earthbound Junior Member

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    I really can't be bothered with all of this small minded bickering.....

    Biofarmag, you never really responded to my post, so I assume you have no response, as to comprehending what the role of a certifying body is. I was hoping that if you understood their role you may better understand why they don't give advise.

    RF, are you saying that the grower over the road sprayed the roundup, and this is within organic certification guidlines?
     
  2. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Joel and Richard,

    How much ya wanna bet they don't answer any of your questions?

    Welcome, once again, to the Fellowship of the Ignored.....

    C
     
  3. biofarmag

    biofarmag Junior Member

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    Joel, no I haven't responded to your post. My apologies. I wasn't ignoring you. I was probably just a bit flabbergasted when the crap started again.

    Certifying bodies not providing information, as it's not their role? On their websites, they seem to indicate that it is. If they promote a system, and encourage growers to join their organisations and to pay levies to them, then I really can't see why they can't also be centres of research and dissipation of knowledge and skills. Quality Assurance organisations (such as Freshcare) do this. Maybe you disagree? Fine. Do so. To me it seems logical, especially as they know (SURELY they know) how much snakeoil and misinformation there is out there.

    No, Richard, I haven't done a permaculture course. I'm reasonably familiar with the system and its principles. I have no need or no desire to go down that pathway, as it isn't what I do (or intend to do) either personally or professionally. I have an interest in organic and sustainable agriculture. I'm not a purist practitioner or "believer" in any one system. That's where I'm coming from.

    So, does anyone other than Chris want me to leave?
     
  4. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    I don't think Chris even particularly wants you to leave, Jeff. I do think that he and most of us here would expect that you are prepared to back up your statements here with solid evidence, and that you are in fact at least open to discussing things within a framework of Permaculture design methodology. Of course, what constitutes good design and true sustainability is open to discussion, and for that reason, I welcome anyone and everyone to this very important discussion!
     
  5. biofarmag

    biofarmag Junior Member

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    I think Chris can't stand it when somebody disagrees with him. I'm sure you can see this too. Look at how he clearly can't stand being ignored, and begs others to cut and paste his comments?

    OK. I must speak Permaculturist here? OK. Bill said that roundup has its place. So, if Bill doesn't condemn its use outright....and Jeff doesn't condemn its use outright.....then either Bill and Jeff are very bad, or Bill and Jeff are actually intelligent and non-fanatical.
     
  6. grease

    grease Junior Member

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    Get over yourselves,debating who's right or wrong. Use glyphosate or not it's your choice. Think on this and all the other things you you can't control. Since 1923 when lead was intoduced to petrol to stop 'nock' in petrol engines the lead content in the atmosphere has increase steadily and dangerously. Even since lead was banned in the great US of A in 1986 and in Oz from when? Americans live with"625 times more lead in their blood than people did a century ago" (Bill Bryson, a short history of nearly everything).And I don't hear any of you concerned about this or any other thing beyond our control.
    Girls ( I appologise to women on this forum, these 'guys'...... wouldn't make a girls blouse, sorry don't antagonise) get over your own pre-judges and live life, don't be so precious. Permaculture=permanent culture. Not gardening only, but getting on with each other(just my view sorry[ I don't have any formal qualifications ]) .
    Merry Christmas( to all you non Muslims,Budhists,Taoists,Hindu's,Zionists etc,etc).
    Food for thought, What about antibiotic resistant bugs?
     
  7. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    Good point grease, about Permaculture being about learning how to get on with one another... I think that even if we have the odd blue, that discusison is a good start to that process (of learning how to get on with one another)...
    Jeff, your logic there could get a bit dangerous mate. Just because you and Bill agree on something doesn't mean you are both right. (I've met the man, and the sun definitely wasn't shining out of his arse the whole time)
    I think that Bill advocates the use of things like chemicals or fossil fuels as a means of transitioning to a form of agriculture that isn't dependent on them. He uses the term treadmill, as in, don't get stuck on the treadmill of using roundup, or insecticides or even weedwhackers or tillers... Design a system that is diverse enough and self fertile enough that you can ultimately do away with external inputs of energy.
    You really could do worse than take a PDC, mate!
     
  8. grease

    grease Junior Member

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    I met Bill over a weekend about 8 years ago. He struck me as a realist in that whatever had to be done had to be done, He wasn't strict on dogma just the outcome. I think he would laugh at you purists.
     
  9. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    Well, yeah, he would. He likes a good laugh. But I bet he wouldn't tell you that you should plan on using roundup forever as a part of your regime for growing food.
     
  10. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    I never said Jeff shouldn't be here. I did only ask "why" he is here.

    I have nothing against him. The last time he left because he wouldn't answer specific questions regarding endocrine disruptors and Round Up. This time he has chosen to ignore me because I asked him why he's here.

    I go back and forth, wondering, is he a paid misinformant? is he a paid agent provacateur? is he just a disagreeable fellow? why is he promoting Round Up and cheating on certified organics here? I just don't get it, and when I ask why, he chooses to ignore me.

    Theres a whole big universe, many places to go and preach the wonders of Round Up. Why here?

    Very strange.
     
  11. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    All ways look on the bright side of life.whistles.

    Thank you and goodnite stay tuned for the next episode of Monty Python

    Tezza
     
  12. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    Richard

    To make a 'point', you have resorted to building a strawman, a logical fallacy that bio ever said that.

    This use of 'strawman fallacies', [that could even be a permie thing] now makes you feel secure that you have blotted out the use of glyphosate because you have used a fallacy to denounce someone that YOU believe is an advocate of glyphosate use??

    Bio, do you sell glyphosate??

    Interested,

    Mike
     
  13. biofarmag

    biofarmag Junior Member

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    THANK YOU, Mr Floot! (Finally!) No.....I do not sell glyphosate! I expressed an opinion! That's all! And I've been subjected to a friggin' witch-hunt ever since! I've already explained that I NEVER get asked (professionally) about weed-control. No one asks! They've already decided whether they wish to use herbicides or not! They never ask me! And I don't believe I could sway them one way or the other, seeing as this is NOT my area of expertise! I used the "Bill said" argument to try and make a POINT (Richard)......NOT to be "dangerous". And no, I will NOT do a PDC course. I'm sure there are many courses that you could benefit from too, Richard....but I wouldn't be presumptuous about what I think you could benefit from. I think I'll stick to my Masters Degree studies, thanks all the same.

    As for the rest of this crap? ENOUGH! I won't answer anything else about herbicide! NOT because I won't "prove" or "back up" anything. But because this is getting so bloody boring and stupid! I made a comment. I expressed an opinion......once! And I've never seen such a silly reaction in my entire life! Get over it, people!

    (Thank you also, Mr Grease. Fresh air is nice!)
     
  14. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Going a bit back to Forests post about Russet potatoes: in the Andes, where potatoes originated, they have thousands of different varieties. Some for early and some for late harvests. Some for higher, drier and colder elevation, and others for lower, wetter and warmer elevations. GThousands of varieties produced for thousands of reasons...

    Out of thousands of varieties, one potato was made the potato of choice for Europe, the so-called "Irish" potato. This single variety became the fodder that fed the work force and land poor Irish peasnants until the 1840s, when the potato blight (a phytopthora fungus) wiped them out. This resultant loss of the staple of the poor resulted in over a million people starving to death with the taste of grass intheir mohts, because there was no food.

    Irish potato is especially suscpetible to phytopthora, but noone knew it.

    At the time of the famine, Ireland was actively exporting food, and the starvation of over a million poor Irish, right next to the richest country in Europe at the time, is a shameful thing, a shameful thing made possible by this single crop mentality.

    Our global food supply is also going through a dumbing down. I forget the exact statistics, (and I posted them a while back), but it we as a species derive something like %90 of our calories from 15 species, and we are producing less and less varieties of those species.

    Forest, you touched on one of the most under ecognized and important issues facing us as a species.

    One of the things we are working on, in our admittedly very, very, very small (really small) and probably inconsequential way, is to value genetic diversity in agriculture. We have many species, and as many varieties of each speci as we can find.

    Genetic information is going extinct, while species get bred down for specific qualities, shipping ability, ability to grow fast and uniformly and, increasingly, genetically modified to accept increased exposure to Round Up (%90 of soy and canola). Dan the Man, Joel and myself all discussed this a few months back.

    "The Pillar of Belize is Agriculture" (from a campaign to convince more people to farm). I would change that to the pillar of humanity is agriculture, and its foundation gets whittled down daily, by seductive reductionist approaches to agriculture, heavy on inputs, and over all, in the long term, and subject to the mostr rudimentary of true cost accounting, not sustainable, and, to get to the point, a smaller genetic resource base, as seen by less species and less varieties of species.....

    Anyway, Forest, thanks for mentioning that aspect of this argument, and sorry I did not respond to it earlier. It is a large topic (larger and much more important than wether or not Round Up is sustainable,especially since we all know it isn't :lol: ), and it deserved more attention than it got (even here).

    C
     
  15. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    I'm sorry, now I don't get it. What is my strawman idea? Whatever... Let's all meet on a field somewhere, line up on opposite sides, as clearly identified by the partisan nature of this debate and throw rocks at each other? :roll: :lol:
    Seriously, can we please feel free to have disagreements here without ending up calling one another names?
     
  16. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Richard, you know how to shoot? I'll bring all of our guns, both of dawns and ALL three of mine! (Lets get Dan the Man and Corny on our side, since they were soldiers....)









    And, just to clarify: this was a joke.








    (I'll bing 'em Richard. Tell me where we can get these guys..... :twisted: )













    Seriously, though: just kidding.....


















    (The 12 gauge kicks like a mule, the 16 gauge kicks less, but its a double barrel, so after the first two shot, you have to reload.... the 9mms are loud and not entirely accurate past 25 meters, and the .223 has a 40 rnd clip, and it'll put all 40 into a pie plate at 100 meters....... :twisted: )











    Jokes like these are simply not funny..... very sophmoric, Christopher, and they could be consturued as a threat :axe: I am very disappointed in your behaviour....












    (we could get Tullymoor to bring her axe....)
     
  17. Guest

    A strawman fallacy or strawman argument, is when you set something up to look real, and it isn't. People buy into and fight over something that was never real to begin with.

    Bio never said what you or the other twit claimed he was suggesting.

    Every contact I have had with Christopher has been the same. He still to this day has been lobbing in posts, inciting trouble and then editing out his obvious insults, namecalling, judgements, assertions and arguments and making it LOOK like everyone else is the problem.

    He harasses and hounds, and people turn away. Unfortunately there is always someone at the end of it, copping his incessant ravings. And others have expressed their fear that they will be next if they involve themselves, so individuals are left trying to counter ongoing nonsensical attacks.

    If there is genuine care for the rastafarians, you don't go and shove stuff at them that you openly state you know is going to hurt or offend them. But that is his way.

    You too, have fallen subject to, and been a part of building the strawman, Richard, whether you did this intentionally or not. You are not alone - as Christopher has reminded us all.
     
  18. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Respectfully, RF, I am not sure that is true.

    Early on, shortly after you joined this forum, I asked your opinion, along with Richards about goats. I found your information very valuable and interesting.

    I am not sure everyone is so easily manipulated as you suggest, in part because I don't see the manipulation (any such manipulation is accidental).

    I wish you or noone any bad time, and I don't want him or anyone to leave. My point with asking Jeff why he was here was just that. I don't care if he disagrees with me. Many people do on a very broad array of subjects. (of course they are ALL wrong :lol: ) I wanted to know why he was here.

    If he doesn't believe in organics, if he consider permaculture to be a system (I consider it more of a modality) that he doesn't want to practice, and isn't interested in learning about, then why is he here? That is all I wanted to know, and while perhaps it seems to you that I badgered him with it, this question is not such a difficult question to answer, and shouldn't be perceived as hostile when asked.

    I asked him several times before he ignored me.

    I am probably being ignored, but if you have read what I wrote since he came back, I have tried to be considerate, even biting my tongue when he told me he sprays his yard (crazy, in my opinion), except about the rasta thing, which I really do find offensive, tho part of me was just taking a piss.

    I welcomed him back. I apologized. I did that after long consideration of what you wrote, hoping to see a reason that his participation here would be valuable. I accept him even if I think the use of Round Up is wrong. But if he can't even answer why he is here, a simple question, and suggests that cheating consumers who purchase certified organic foods is equal to certified organic foods if there is no residue, then his leaving (again), if that is what he decides to do, is not a huge loss, just as it wasn't last time. If you feel cheated, I have his email address.

    So far, noone at the Twelve Tribes knows anything about Jeffs disrespectful cultural appropriation. Things will probably stay that way. I am sure he doesn't need 100,000 pieces of email from pissed off Rastas from all over the globe, including the Australian headquarters:

    AUSTRALIA: Twelve Tribes of Israel OZ HQ
    26 Newmarket Rd.
    Windsor Brisbane Australia

    If he cares to explain to anyone about his interpretation:

    [email protected] would be a good person to start with.
    Otherwise, that is a dead issue, mon. :lol:
     
  19. frosty

    frosty Junior Member

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    so to get back to the point the dangers of Roundup

    I am sick of bashing my head against the wall trying to convince the pro chemical fools but in case anyone bothers to read this topic looking for informtion with an open mind I want to post a few more facts

    ROUNDUP is an ORGANOPHOSPHATE (OP)...... you wont see that in the monsanto adds in fact they go to great lengths to try and make people think glyphosate is something else :roll: but glyPHOSate is an OP

    and OPs are cholinestarse inhibitors and serious neurotoxins ( see the article I posted with studies proving Roundup is a cholinesterase inhibitor )

    OPs are closely related to Sarin gas

    OPS are what the Nazis used in the gas chambers to kill the jews

    neurological conditions caused by OPs take a long time to become evident one is even called Organophosphate Induced delayed neuropathy (OPIDN )

    they are now also finding that Ops are carcinogens

    and the residues of them are in ALL conventionally grown foods ( and by what has been posted here in some organic food grown by unscrupulous cheats :cry: )

    I will post some articles below

    frosty
     
  20. frosty

    frosty Junior Member

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