ff not that it matters except that I typed all that for nothing but that was a direct quote from what you posted. I don't deny what I said. I stand by it. There are heaps and heaps of organic farmers who are twits and who do very badly. They ARE fulltime farmers, and they're really really lousy at what they do. They make a living......a very poor one. There are also those who are open-minded and intelligent and are learning to do things better. one thing that always mystifyes me is that all these petro based pesticides herbicides and artificial fertilisers have only been around in the last 50 years ......... so if we believe those who now say they cant farm without them how did mankind manage to survive without them for thousands of year It's a different world now. I had an old lettuce grower tell me what he used to get for a box of lettuce 40 years ago.....and what a new car cost. He compared that with what they get today, and what a new car costs right now. Most growers used to supply to a local market. Nowadays you buy Bowen (Nth QLD) tomatoes in Victoria. Everything has gone up in price at a faster rate than has the produce. And people (the MAJORITY of people) won't buy product unless it looks perfect. Worms in apples were common, as were caterpillar marks on leafy veges. Nowadays even the bent and undersized stuff gets left in the paddock because the consumer wants a "better" product for a whole lot less. Yes, mankind survived without these things. But they also had greater losses and lower yields.....AND they could afford them! and as christopher has said a couple of times what about when oil runs out shouldnt we be looking to alternatives Did I ever say we shouldn't? and have you read Pat Coleby' s Natural Land Care ? I have noticed many farmers over here are changing to her methods it could be the start of the quiet revolution without using that dreaded O word that frightens them so much No, I haven't. Who's "frightened"? have a good day I have to go now Have a good one.