Running on DC power

does anyone else run all or part of their home on DC power ?

as suggested by christopher please tell us about your system and we can compare notes and info

we have a small solar system that currently runs

a pressure pump for household water,
the fan on the composting toilet,
12v fluoro lights in the kitchen, toilet, shower and bedroom ( but we also have 240v light we can use if batteries are low )

we have 2 Trojan 105 6v deep cycle batteries - 220 amp hour

4 solarex 52w panels
2 BP 68watt panels
1 38 watt panel

I said currently about because up until June we ran a 12v system and a 24v system

the 12 v system had the 2 68watt panels and the 38 watt panel , and a 130ah battery and ran the as above items plus a 12v TV for 2 hours a night

it seemed to be alright and we did that for about 18 months until the battery died ....... ( the battery was not new when we started we had used it in a caravan previously )

last june we bought a 24 v inverter and set up a system to run the PC for 4 hours a day ( it uses 150w) and an air purifyer for 3 hours a day ( it uses 40w)

we bought 4 6v 220 ah deep cycle batteries Super charge brand

in May this year when the 12 v battery died we decided to combine everything a bought a 24v to 12v converter

we used it for about 4 weeks then the 24v batteries died !!!!

seems with the converter we were drawing down too much on the batteries plus also they were not very good batteries

so now we go worried and went back to a 12v system as above :roll: if the batteries are going to die every 12 months we may as well only have 2 to buy instead of 4 ......

now saving for a 12v inverter but having doubts it will run it anyway

..... we no longer run the TV and have more amp hours but the system seems to be struggling .........

we blamed the pressure pump because it has been coming on and off for no reason and in the mornings when the batteries are low wont turn off

bought another pump but now having other probs with it so dont know yet whether that really was the problem

could also be because we are having a wetter winter thus less sun

aw well thats our system

solar is great when it works

but very frustrating when it doesnt :evil:

frosty

 

Frosty How much wind is in your area? A 12v wind genny may help....try Tasman Energy (google for site I cant find it at the mo) postage was 420.00 so not real bad and he has a heap of info on solar setups for various house types
Pete

 

Frosty,

You have a nice sized system. Sorry to hear about batteries, which are the weak link. Lead acid batteries all have finite lives, and a set of T105s will last anywhere upo to 5 years, and then must be replaced. Even if you cycle the batteris lightly, baby them and give them lots of care, eventually they die. No way around it.

Back in the 1920s, and before, they had 36 volt wind systems in the US, and the batteries they used were nickel iron batteries, which, short of mechanical destruction, will last forever. There is nothing that can be done through use that cannot be reversed electrically or chemically to restore them. Sadly, noone is making them any more, except in China, but I have never found a reputable dealer in the US (our nearest trading partner). When the US underwent thr large rural electrification project in the 30s, which got all those farms on the grid, the wind gennies and batteries were dismantled and placed in barns, where some of them still sit... waiting for someone to come get them and charge them up. I don't know if there might be some sitting in an out building somewhere in Oz, big country and all, but it wouldn't suprize me.

Disadvantages are that nickel iron batteries are less efficient at storing enrgy. They don't hold a charge as well as lead acid batteries. However, they don't need charge controllers! Hook up the panels and let 'er rip. You can't over charge them, and, you can use %100 of the power, none of this "I only use %50 of its capacity to prolong the life of my doomed mortal lead acid batteries" stuff, like we all so now! Another disadvantage is that they are short term expensive, but replace one set of lead acid batteries and you are well ahead of the game, if you can find them, which I have not been able to.....

Your pump could be drawing power when you are not using it, too, which would keep your batteries low, but you could put the pump on a switch, too, which would disconnect the power until you need water. Those flojets are supposed to shut off at a certain pressure. The pump you have now should cut out power at 40 psi, and not start cycling on again until pressure drops again by a faucet being turned on.

Dryland Dwellers (Petes) suggestion of looking into a wind gennie is a good one. If your site is appropriate, this would do much to diversify your energy, giving you power when the wind blows regardless of sunshine. I just installed a solar/wind hybrid system out on a small island in the Port Honduras Marine Reserve last year, and it is doing very well.

If you have a micro hydro appropriate site, that would be the way to go, even if the current produced is only 20 watts. 20 watts x 24hours is 480 watt hours a day. Sadly, the only creek on our land with hydro potential is a half a kilometer away, over a large ridge. Its a no go.

Our system is 375 watts of solar with a 1.8 kw Xantrex sine wave inverter (a gift to myself with my bye-bye bonus when the chocolate company fired me), and it works well. We have 4 L16 batteries wired in series parallel for 750 amp hours at 12 volts. It is metered with a Tri Metric battey monitor, which gives us lots of information about the batteries, but is especially useful in finding phantom loads!

We have plans to install an Ampair 100 watt wind gennie that I bought from a yachtsman who was down on his luck and in the terminal stages of a syndrome we see here in Belize that I have come to call "gringo debaucheritus". Learn to recognize Griongo Debaucheritus, symptoms include paranoia, alcoholism, irritability, psycho behaviour, and loopiness, as well as chronic debt at the bar and selling off posessions for a fraction of their worth. Generally, GD involves semiretired types who come here to relax, but in their new found freedom from responsibility, begin to gravitate to bars out of boredom, or, in a fit of bad decision making all too common in Belize, decide to buy a bar, where they aquire new "friends", who are happy to share the rum bottle. From there it descends in a pretty predictable spiral, until the terminal stages, where their "friends" have begun to thief from them, and they suffer from perpetual hangover, and they get all paranoid and angry, and then they leave, or die. A few of them have died over the years.

Anyway, like a vulture, I got the Ampair for next to nothing about 8 years ago from a very nice guy who came to Belize to retire and live the good life, but turned rum hound, and then teeny bopper skirt chaser, and when I met him to look at his wind gennie, he was so hung over you could smell rum oozing out of his pores. Actually, come to think of it, he was a despicable man, but amiable in his acknowledgement of his condition (few admit to having DB), and pitiable, too, broke, paranoid and bewildered, "Where did all the money go?", stinking of rum.

I got the Ampair, along with a pile of brand new diving gear, a small solar panel and a car jack, a pair of blue jeans and a pocket knife for so little I am ashamed to admit the depravity of my seizing on his unfortunate condition. In truth, he approached me as I walked along the seashore ("Hey, man! Ya wanna buy a solar panel? I got this wind thingie, too..."). I have to share my good fortune, though, because it makes the whole story so interesting: in a wonderful bit of opportunistic scavenging, like a lot of our solar equipment, the whole shebang set me back about USD150. I sold the panel for USD150. And I have not gotten around to installing it, yet... Anyway, hruumph, off topic, so sorry, apologies all around, prattling again, off topic this time, bad form, Christopher, bad form, back into the fray:

Even with the inverter, we use mostly DC power, for lights, fans and to run the laptops. We use the inverter for other things, like the washing machine (a Staber, very efficient), the satellite internet, blender, occasional use of power tools, etc.

We started out with one panel, one 12v battery, two lights, and have had various permutations of systems leading up to what we now have. I have owned dozens of solar panels. I buy them cheap, use them if I need them, or sell them for a modest markup, (or sell them when we have cash problems) and keep a rotating pile of panels on the farm. This is the horse trader in me.

I sell components and systems locally, full brand new systems for NGOs (sold two in the last twelve months, and have three designed to be built in the next two or three months) and small one or two panel systems for small farmers. I have sold and installed about 18 of thise smaller systems in the last few years. I sell small farmer systems built around second hand panels (which I get from larger systems that fin ally got the grid), and I make a very small markup which makes the systems possible (mostly the solar evengelist in me getting his yayas out), but I do well on the new systems.

Frosty, another suggestion like putting your pump on a switch that would help with your power consumption: you should consider getting a laptop as they draw only about 20-30 watts, which will do alot to save your batteries from being drawn down. There are 12 vdc adapters for them, too. The prices for laptops are coming down, and they use so little power that you would do well to consider one! A bi directional amp meter would let you know how much power is going into or out of your batteries, too, which would help identify any other hidden power drains on your system.

Anywy, sorry if I went on too long.... There is some useful information in here if you weed through the extraneous information!

Christopher

 

:lol: Christopher, you dirty bugger!

I am a real novice to all things electrical but here is my 2 cents.
Frosty, if I understand you, you are saying that you combined an older battery with a newer set? From my understanding this isn't a good idea, on account of how batteries tend to work as well as the weakest cell in the battery. This may have been a source of your problems...
From what I have read, it isn't all that cheaper to run a DC system, since they aren't mass producing DC appliances so much anymore. Especially now that inverters are relatively cheap. Christopher probably piccked up all his cool DC stuff by rolling drunks, :lol: but you probably don't have the same opportunities where you are in WA...
It is supposed to be much cheaper to look at ways of reducing your consumption or make it more efficient than to increase the size of your solar system.
Make sure all your light bulbs are the compact fluoro kind - they are selling ones that make a pretty bright warm light now that unly use 5 watts, make sure all your appliances are plugged into power strips and turn off the strips when you aren't using them, look into the pressure tank to help your pump from going on unecessarily. etc/
Compared to you guys we have a mega solar system (compared to some of our neighbours our system is miniscule) and we have shared this house at times with people who just couldn't bear not to have things like the cordless phone always plugged in and who used their tv as a childminding device, and you know, we were running the generator every other weekend with that lot. Right now we have a similar headcount in the house but we are all pretty conscious, or we like to think so anyway, and we only run the genny when it is time to equalise the batteries. Sure would be nice to have a wind turbine though... Hey Chris next time you run into the DB syndrome keep us in mind for one of those would you?

 

True, Richard, I am shameless. My opportunistic depravity knows no bounds.... I have to sprout my bat wings and fly out tonight on the full moon, looking for some fresh blood....

You brought up the most important aspect of solar: The key is to reduce your energy use wherever you can. Compact floro lights, power strips, etc, are all good. And inverters are getting incredible cheap. Not too long ago the cost was a deciding issue on its own. We started out with an all DC system, but after a few years we bought an inverter, and have now owned several, selling off the old ones when we need a larger one. (I do not anticipate getting a larger inverter any time soon as even with the washing machine, satellite internet and blender on, we don't excede the rated power).

However, in the systems I design, mostly smaller 12 volt systems, even the biggest systems (

 

hi guys

just a quick note because today is dreaded shopping day when we head off to Perth on a 300km round trip to get food ........

today is a bit better than the usual drudge because we are going to "meet" our goat but I digress and I dont have time today althought christopher I did take the time to read your stories about GD and enjoyed them very much :lol: :lol: will keep our eyes open because we live near a coastal town and aussie love to retire to a sea change :wink:

meanwhile we do keep an eye on "The quokka" which is a weekly free add newspaper here and full of bargains eg we have a quokka car, a quokka dog, most of our solar panels are ex quokka even this block of land was ex quokka :lol: :lol:

we have consdiered a wind generator but I think we have too many trees and a lot of them are close to the house ......... this is a good wind area and our neighbour over the road has a 2.6kva West wind but we couldnt cut our tuart trees down ....... although lately they keep dying I must post about tat another day

Richard dont worry we never combine old and new batteries in the same system ........

will reply better tonight

frosty

 

HI christopher

sorry I didnt make it back here last night ...... had a long hard day !

just a bit more on wind generators ......... we are very keen on the idea of a wind generator but just not game to make the investment because we cant get any reliable info on whether it will work with us having trees

so even with turbulance do they still generate some power ?

we were thinking of a 400w Air X and putting it on the roof ......... (yes I know there will be some noise but we thought it would be ok ) it was high on our list of things o save for but now we have so many doubts it has been shelved for a while ........

we dont have any water to consider hydro

here Xantrex inverters are modified sine wave ? they are fairly cheap but we dont know about running the air purifyer on modified sine wave because it has several speeds so I guess that makes it a variable speed motor and we are told they need pure sine wave ..........

we are seriously considering putting the house totally on gravity as was one of your suggestion in the other thread

our block slopes and the house is about 2 m lower than up by the back fence so if we can find a second hand tank stand and put it up there we could just pump up to it once a day using the new pump ....... we could do this during peak sun time maybe even direct from the panels

can you give me more info on running a pump direct from panels ?

we have decided to keep the pump because once we get the goat we will need a decent pump to wash down in the dairy shed ......... we would have had to use mains power but the new pump should do the job .......

I keep thinking of laptops but I find it harder to type on a lap top becasue I sue my keyboard sort of sloping up at the back and my fingers ( I am a 2 finger typist LOL ) dont work very well :lol: I also find looking down at a laptop give sme a neck ache :lol: :lol: :lol: its hard beng an old whinger with so many aches and pains !

ok so what is one of them :lol:

we have a Prostar 30 amp regulator which tells us how many amps are going into the battery,how many amps coming out and how many volts in the battery. We have been told we need to change our regulator and get a Plasmatronic regulator with a shunt which costs all up $700 :shock: then we can tell what is really in the batteries .........but for now the budget doesnt stretch to that

we are a bit suspicious of the regulator because it never lets in more than 10amps and our panels should produce more than that

also once the regulator goes on float it interferes with the radio do you know what we do about that ? someone told us there was some device to stop it

thanks for your help

frosty

 

bump for christopher

please I still need help !

frosty

 

Frosty I saw an error in my last post it was postage is $20 not 420 (forgot the shift key)
on his website https://www.tasmanenergy.com/index.htm he has an 1800 number I would give him a ring and get his views on this as he is very green oriented and extremely helpful before and after selling.
We have the airex and it starts generating at about 11mph and max watts (400) at 28mph.
works well for the money compared to solar but I feel you really need a hybrid system utilising solar and wind with a genny for back up and heavy usage (welding etc)
Pete

 

Frosty,

Even tho I own another win turbine (just haven't gotten around to installing it ) the only wind generator I have installed is an Air x Marine. They make noise, but alot less than the Air 303 I saw installed, which screached, sounding like something aweful was happening ("Oooh, Dawn, you go kill it, the pooor thing is in agony out there...")

The Air X is easy to install (the people I installed it for got a roof mount kit, well worrth the money. It produces plenty of power when the wind is out, and as far as noise, with the wind i the trees and against the building, inside the buiding you could not hear it at all, and outside it was more of flutttering than anything else.

For trees, think of installing a higher tower, which is outside my realms of experience, but the pages of Home Power would be a good place to start any research. Towers really make a difference in capacity.

Xantrex does make cheeepy inverters, too, but we have a good one, formerly a Statpower Prosione inverter. Xantrex bought out Trace Engineering and Statpower a few years ago, along with two or three other companies, basically buying most of the electrical conditioning companies based out of the NW US and BC Canada. They have some competetion with Outback and also Heart Interface, but they make great stuff, cheaper than Outback, and Heart Interface only makes inverters, not charge controllers and meters, combiner boxes, power centers etc.

Panel direct pumping is fairly simple, but to maximize your pumping, get a linear current booster, which functions as the transmission of your pump, enabling the pump to start up in low light. Also, fuse your positive wire!!!!!! Pumping up to a tank with gravity feeding is, IMO, the best, easiest, most fool proof way to pressurize your house system, and be the simplest answer to your needs.

Instead of a laptop, you can get a flat screen LCD monitor, which used to be expensive but they are getting cheaper now, and they also use so much less power.

Your Prostar has the capabiity of a bidirectional meter (shows amps in and amps out, a very good controller, BTW). The low amps you see may well be the "true" power of your panels. Panels are rated at lab conditions, %100 sunlight, freezing tyemperature, but in real life, as the panels get hot, they produce less power, sad but true. Try taking each panel off line in peak sun one after the other and record any dips in production! You might have one that is faulty (unlikely, but possible), or you might have a wiring mess up....

There is a block you can put between your radio and batteries which will stop the noise, but I forget what it was called or anything else about it. I have some older catalogs which I will go through to see if I can find it.

We found flourescent lights messed up our short wave radio, so used pickup truck back up lights when we wanted to listen to short wave. A pretty silly solution.

For a good meter, Trimetric makes one called the Trimetric 2020, which acts as a gas gauge and a speedometer for your b atteries. They run about USD 150-190, I forget the price, but well worth the money if you use them to keep your batteries running longer.

300 mk from town? That's a long way to go! I felt far at 3 km with no road from the village and another 35 km to town.... Bet your shopping list is well thought out when you go!

I hope these answers help you, and if you have any more questions, ask me and I will do my best to answer them.

Best,

C

 

thanks one again christopher

of course I have just a few more questions and comments :lol:

the wind generator info gives us something to consider ...... we definately do need a hybrid system

once we get the gravity system set up filling the tank by direct pumping arround midday would seem to be the best option....... do you think that pump will cope ok with running for about a hour straight to fill the tank ?

I do have an LCD monitor as I said my whole system uses 150 w all together which isnt too bad if I dont stay on too long ....... but for now I am back on mains anyway until we get a 12v inverter

this is very interesting ...... all our panels have blocking diodes so would a faulty panel still be able drag the system down?

but then again our 38w panel is very old and crappy so maybe it is the culprit ..... will do as you suggest !

thanks we are in same position someone told us there is something that will help but we cant remember what it was called :lol: :lol:

but also note our radio is not even running on the DC it is on the mains power yet the regulator still causes interference oceit goes on float ....... it is working ok now but by about 10am we wont be able to hear the radio ...... stranger still it also effects the car radio when the car is parked int he carport :?

maybe I forgot to put in "round trip" we are about 120km from Perths northern suburbs but by the time we run all over the place getting stuff it is about a 300km round trip !

we also have a small town - Lancelin - about 28km away but they dont sell any Organic food

and the other stuff they do sell has a strange habit of doubling in price on th trip from Perth :?

regards
frosty

 

Frosty,

No problem on the pump running for an hour. We used Shurflo and Fojet pumps wired panel direct, and they ran for months any time the sun was shining. They would last about a year, or all of our six month dry season, pumping up about 40-50 meters elevation. They all eventually had problems, busted heads, bad motors, bad seals, and would be rebuilt, a few times, but they were not desiged for this leve of use. Your needs are well within the parameters of expected usage. I am sure your pump could lift all the water you need lifted. Running an hour is not a big thing.

The panel could be drawing energy away, or could just be underperforming, and if you expect X energy and are getting less than you expected, it could be a bad panel dropping votage, or a panel not producing, or just a loose connection in the wiring. Running a check will narrow it down and should tell you where the problem lies.

I dismantled a solar system for a local NGO, and they had one of their four panels shorted out, and all the energy back fed until the wire burned. The panel is now what I call a coffee table. In the systems I build I install a PV combiner box, with individual circuit breakers to avoid shorting out a panel.

Radio interference. Hmmmm. Are your solar panels grounded? Is your AC system grounded? Could be something like that. I don't know enough about radios.

Still pretty far to town. Lancelin sounds like snack food heaven, :lol:. We can buy things in Columbia village, but they cost a wee bit more than Punta Gorda Town. I buy things in Columbia anyway, just to keep the economy rolling, and to save on fuel costs.

Ask if more questions come up!

C

 

Hey there Frosty,

I don't if I can be of any real help - Christopher sounds like your best bet for good advice - but our home and property is run solely on solar power - no connection to the mains. We have 6 panels, and either 5 or 6 batteries...and it all goes through the converter, except the fan in the Rotaloo I think. My partner looks after all things electrical, I grew and cook things :lol:

But my point was that we run our whole house on it - washing machine, lights, stereo, power tools, water pump to the header tank - with no real problems, certainly not to the extent that you describe. Our system is 5 years old - with no need for replacements yet.

Perhaps the issue is that you don't have enough panels and/or batteries?

Good luck.


Fran.

 

Frosty, I, too, started out with Trojan batteries, but after just 2 1/2 years they started oozing out the top, yet they still performed well, but it made a mess, and required more maintenance. I won't get them again.

Now I only use AGM, sealed absorbed glass mats. And they are expensive, but I'd have to buy two sets of Trojan deep cycles to last as long, so they really are worth it. Safer, less maintenance, no mess, more reliable.

And if you are considering a wind turbine, I'm not quite sure where you are, but if the fog comes in at night (which is does where I am by the coast) there won't be any wind, and you need a minimum amount of hours of wind depending on your system, so be careful not to get too optimistic and sink a lot of money into something that might not be able to perform the way you hoped.

https://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Batter ... 0Batteries

 

franceyne it would be interesting if you could tell us more about your system - how many panels and their size plus size and number of batteries ?

sweatpea thanks for the link that is a very informative article I saved it and will print it for hubby to read

we dont have much fog here - very occasionally in winter ....... the wind is pretty good Lancelin actually has the reputation of being the "windsurfing capital of the world " :lol:

they are also considering putting in a commerical wind farm along the coast

we are a little inland so the wind isnt as good as on the coast but it is still good enough I think :? except for all our trees

frosty

 

windsurfing capital of the world

Well, I have some neighbours that would argue that the windsurfing capital of the world is actually Ho'okipa beach here on Maui, actually Frosty. There is even talk of a few wind farms being built here too. Of course, there is a bit of an issue with sea birds getting fouled up in the props, not to mention the props getting fouled up on the birds... :?

 

Richard and Frosty,

I can definitively say that Punta Gorda is NOT the wind surfing capital of anywhere.

Richard, in defence of wind turbines and birds:

The worst place for bird damage with wind turbines is the Altamont Pass, which is along a major migratory route of raptors, hence they get a few hundred bird deaths per year. This is what most articles about bird death and turbines are talking about. However, a 5 mile strecth of Interstate 5 in California gets more deaths per year from unfortunate bird/truck/car interfaces than all of the Altamont Pass does. The oil, coal and nuclear companies use these figures to promote their dirty technologies.

"Wind kills birds" is true, to a small extent, but much less than acid rain from oil and coal, long distance power lines, and the potential for death of all life from radioacive waste, etc. Wind is still a very low impact form of power generating. Not to say there is no issue here, but wind is the least wildlife damaging form of energy production.

Also, the new generation of generators spin at a very slow rate, using massive blades hundreds of feet long, which birds can see and avoid, unlike older generators which spun at higher speeds. Noone is building the old ones any more, just these huge generators.

There is another anti wind argument, the Wind is Ugly Argument, which I can understand, even while I consider them to be beautiful. Every big wind turbine I have ever seen makes me pleased.

I have seen very large wind turbines in Holland and Spain. I went to a coneference in Amsterdam a few years ago, and from down town you could see the turbines off in the distance, massive affairs spinning slowly, making power.

In Spain, in the Alpujarras mountains south of Granada, they have beautiful cordilleras, valley after valley, with wonderful streams, and charming villages of stone houses, looking as if they had grown up out of the ground themselves. Above this, on the ridges above the lower valleys there are dozens of these enormous wind turbines, spinning slowly. A beautiful sight, to my way of thinking, but others might not like them, and I can say that the mountains, beautiful with the turbines, would probably be more beautiful without them, too. But stick a nuclear plant in there, and I think everyone would agree that the wind turbines are prettier than the nuke plant.

For Hawaii, an alternative to imported fuels. No oils spills for fuel oil to power diesel generators! A plus!

It is hard to be pragmatic about esthetics.... some people just don't like wind turbines. On the other hand, noone is a big fan of acid rain, either. Just my .05 in defence of wind, the poor maligned power source.

Anyway, if you can get a good tower up above the trees, Frosty, you will be able to catch more wind, without turbulence, which will be better for your turbine. This is more of an undertaking than mounting some solar panels on the roof, though, and should be done by a professional unless you have complete confidence in your ability to do it. I don't :lol: , so the only turbine I have mounted is one of those little Air x turbines with a roof mounting kit. That is a good little turbine.

Sweetpea, what type of Trojans did you have, L16s or T105s? we used to use T105s, but our newer system is on 4 L16s wired in series parallel for a little less than 800 amp hours at 12vdc. We still hava a pair of T105s that are about 8 years old, but the house they ar in is our old house, which we put volunteers in, and they only use lights and fans, so they batteries are not used heavily...

I like the AGM batteries, from what I have read they are excellent, but a bit costly, and they don't have them here in Belize.

So, Sweetpea, tell us about your system... panels, batteries, controller, voltage, etc..

Christopher

 

"There is another anti wind argument, the Wind is Ugly Argument..."

Try a beached oil spill, if you want ugly.

Wouldn't it be nice if the condition of our world was of primary concern, instead of all these private agendas?

Sue

 

Hey there Frosty,

I went home and asked my partner to write down the details of our system so I could relay the information on to you :lol:

We have a John Morgan designed system which consists of:

~ a six panel solar array of 450 watts
~ 750 amp hour of battery storage
~ a 1.6KW sinewave inverter
~ a 0.75KW battery charger - which uses a petrol driven generator, not that we need this much, used once this winter.

All our wiring runs are short, the panels are mounted near the battery bank and pull switches are used for all lighting adding to the efficiency.



Cheers,
Fran.

 

thanks fran

thats is very interesting -you have a bit more solar power we have 344watts yet you are running a lot more than us

of course your battery bank is much bigger but we dont have to worry about a reserve for cloudy weather because we just switch to mains

I agree with your original assessment something seems to be wrong with our system :cry:

still haven got round to trying what christopher suggested - still fencing for the goats arrival

frosty


frosty