rock dust for soil conditioning

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by baleboy, Aug 30, 2005.

  1. baleboy

    baleboy Junior Member

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    i have just read a book called "organic growing with worms

    it was great for a whole bunch of reasons but....

    david murphy (the author) mentions regularly the benifits of rock dust as a soil conditioner.

    it is good because unlike NPK crap fertilizers it is insoluble and thus will not wash out of your soil with the rain and polute the ground water or local river

    the minerals in the powdered rock become available when coated with th enzymes created by the bacteria in healthy soil (actinomycetes is one type) worms love it too for grinding food in their gizzards

    the theory, if i have read correctly, of why australian soils are mineral deficient is because we missed out on the last ice age and thus the ground up powdered rock created by the glacial flows from the mountains is not in our soil

    any powdered rock will do, i found it being sold as a product called "just dust" in a building and garden supplies place. it was manufactured for concreters to put on wet concrete to give it a smooth hard finish

    it is literally a very fine dark grey powder it was pretty cheap too

    does anyone have any other info on rock dust ?

    how much do you put out ? can you put out too much?
     
  2. baleboy

    baleboy Junior Member

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    rock dust and chickens

    i just remembered reading about rockdust beiing good for chickens and people too

    anyone know anything about this ???
     
  3. Ichsani

    Ichsani Junior Member

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    Hi Baleboy,

    The very same book is staring at me from my bookshelf! I read it about a month ago...I agree, beautiful stuff.... 8)
    I don't know about rock dust for chickens or humans....but I do know that all rock dust is NOT equal. Rocks by way of their formation, (and their initial magma constitution) have different chemical makeups. So one has to have dust from rocks that have the desired minerals in the first place.

    I think it is called activated phosphate rock dust? Or something like that... :oops: ...I'm sure some one on this site will know the name! So concreters dust may no be from said desired rocks...... but apparently the right stuff is pretty easy to get a hold of in Aust. with some research.

    As the wormies pass it through their gut, it helps chelate the metallic elements with organic ones...(think places for the mineral elements to "stick" in the soil)........problem with conventional NPK is that it is oversupplied in a soluble form and due to lack of 'sticky' places in soil (think organic matter and young clay/sheet silicates) and its high solubility, it washes into the groundwater and then into the waterways.......since P is VERY limited in water naturally, cyanobacteria populations EXPLODE! As is to be expected when there's suddenly alot of what kept them in check.... anyway I'm waffling.....
    :lol:

    The thing about Aust soils being mineral deficient (when measured against European soils remember! The natives don't complain!) because of missing the last Ice-age is correct, except there's a little more to the story..... Australia is VERY old, very very old, and so very stable, and the said rocks that make the good dust mentioned above, generally need certain types of volcanic activity to form, that we haven't had very much of..... These rocks also weather fastest, so a long time with much rain...much leaching....low organic matter...etc etc

    But the good side is that you can't really over-do the rock dust for the soil, but too much might hurt the hip pocket!

    Do you remember the bit in the book about making worm tea from the castings?(not the worm juice that comes out) and then chucking it into an a big pot and stirring vigourously? This is a microbial culture, which is remarkably similar to the process of making Biodynamic 500 (!) except that worms are used to cultivate the first batch of the RIGHT microbes, and not cow horns in the ground. Its full of Actinomycetes, Frankia, Nostoc (nitrogen fixers) etc etc all very good!

    If you're into keeping the nutrients in the soil, check out anything you can find about Terra preta (THANKYOU forum for helping me find that lead again!), charcoal additions essentially....'sticky' places....don't forget the humus that goes with it......

    But I don't know where to get charcoal (the stuff used for filters, not ash), nor whether it is very enviro friendly to make...wood burned in the absence on oxygen? Thats slow combustion maybe?

    Hope to do some proper Oz based experiments on the charcoal additions some time in the future (all papers I've found are o/s), could help improve some of the poor conventional ag practices......


    TIDBIT for the day.....
    making N fertilizers uses 5% of the entire world oil supply
    cause we need temps around 500C, and pressure of about 650 atmospheres to fix nitrogen from the air
    all conventional fertilizers use this process
    How much extra food is produced cause of N fertilizers?
    And how much oil is left?

    little microbes can do it at room temp with 1atm pressure, with a molecule they make called nitrogenase.....and we still don't even know how exactly said enzyme works.....
    Time to farm wee little animicules (the first recorded description of a microbe, and the establishment at the time said the guy must have been drinking too much!)

    Don't really need to say more than that. :lol:

    Hope there's something useful in there for you Baleboy! Its certainly a whopper of a reply....

    :lol:
    Ichsani
     
  4. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    In California where I am, and where the Ice Age and volcanoes have brought up some amazing rocks that have been pulverized over eons, the wineries and orchardists are boasting their merits.

    I have incorporated granite sand into my soil, a one time effort for at least 10 years of mineral contribution, and a permanent soil structure improvement. Rock powders are not expensive, and are absolutely worth it.

    Aside from cover crops and compost, I've found rock powders to be an invaluable part of healthy soil. :)
     
  5. baleboy

    baleboy Junior Member

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    thanks

    thanks for the detailed replies guys

    i am so impressed with how alive this site is

    perhaps its the extra minerals in our diets

    :lol:

    anyway i havent found any rock dust yet that is made specifically for the garden

    i did email david murphy though(the guy who wrote the book his email is in the back cover )

    he said the blue metal rock dust was fine but i would love to here from anyone else about it

    sweetpea! i am so glad i have found a fellow admirer of that worm book

    i am making that bd 500 look alike solution in my wheelie bin as we speak
    it has such a certail smell from the molasses. it it cost me about $30aud to set up a system i just needed a little aquarium pump and some urea and molasses

    i was thinking though that there must be a more natural permaculture way to feed the backeria in the right proportions in the back yard

    if all they need is carbon and nitrogen at a ratio of 5:1 surely you could add a certain quantity of chicken poo for the nitrogen and some munched up cardboard for the carbon or something like that ? any thoughts ?
    wont the bacteria just take what they need ??

    i have already put a bit of the solution on the garden so we will see how it goes

    i also thought i might do a simple test with some tomatoes and give some the solution and others not to see if it makes much of a difference

    it is all very exciting isnt it !!
     
  6. baleboy

    baleboy Junior Member

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    sorry

    i just noticed i got the names wrong in that last post

    sorry Ichsani
     
  7. baleboy

    baleboy Junior Member

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    terra preta

    hey iscani

    i went to a few of the terra preta sites i get a bit of it but what in laymans terms did you find so inspiring

    and what of this knowledge have you or will you employ on your land, pots, ponds, whatever??!!
     
  8. Ichsani

    Ichsani Junior Member

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    Hi Baleboy,

    That's OK about the name, I've had every combo under the sun, but I have to say that being called sweetpea was the nicest stuff up yet :lol:

    With the nutrients for the wheelie bin...stick with urea and molasses, they are the most suitable and close to pure substances (that I know of, Murphy would be better to ask about this). There are substitutes, but you'll probably find that they are quite expensive. There is nothing un-permaculturish about using urea to grow culture. It's just urea. A simple, soluble nitrogen compound. Its just that most people don't know what it fully does in the system, which leads to management mistakes through ignorance rather than ill intent. The nutrients that are supplied by you will be incorporated into new cells and others chelated to organic matter. No problem.

    Have a think about what they will eat once they are applied, maybe dig in a green manure to give them a head start? Either way they will sporolate and come alive when there's food. (Note, don't use urea here, as you'll run into problems with declining soil structure and leaching).

    Cardboard and chicken poo, while they both contain the desired elements...are in the incorrect kind of form? Does that make sense? these are tiny tiny little microbs that you are growing in your wheelie bin....trying to grow them is essentially like trying to convince billions of little cells and spores (much smaller than out own cells!!) that its a good time to breed... and that means easily accessable food... :D ,

    Also, chicken poo can be inhabited by a wide range of gut microbes, salmonella, E.coli and its cousins, contaminant microbes are not a good idea, especially if they could 'potentially' infect you. If chicken poo were used all sorts of things could happen. While I don't know who would win out in a battle betwen E.coli and Actinomycetes, (depends on the conditions, did you know Actinomycetes produce antibiotics? 8) ) it would still be competition for the microbes that you do want, which will definetly yeild lower populations, hence your solution would be 'weaker' (as well as potentially dangerous).

    Organic poo doesn't get any gold stars here either, all of these species are in the chicken faeces in some number because they are PART of the flora and fauna, contamination is always possible, good aseptic technique and common sense is required. Think of it like brewing beer! Now that stuff we can drink :lol: :lol: :lol:

    This is not intended to scare you Baleboy, just to inform you.....
    *WARNING-Gross story*... I had a strep infection years ago, :? , it only took two days to spread through my sinus, down my throat and into my bronchial tubes, I was up #$%@-$@*&%. Was given Penicillin, and the little f%*&$%s were dead in 24 hours, yet if it happened around 1900 it probably would have killed me, the stuff that cleared out after looked like 1/2cm thick processed meat-like tissue mat, eewwwwwww!!!!!!!!!!!!! That infection came from contaminated food, but it illustrates why its important to be mindful that infection can, and does occaisionally, happen.

    I've grown most of these microbes in isolation before (including the 'baddies' E.coli, Strepp. and Staph.) and follow standard procedures which include OH&S. The most important thing is to be mindful of what you are doing (it gets surprisingly easy to forget exactly what one is handling!)

    Enough! Hope I didn't give you the heebie-jeebies!
    :lol:

    The experiment sounds fun, it'll be fascinating to see what happens!

    Good luck, and Good Brewing 8)

    Ichsani
     
  9. Ichsani

    Ichsani Junior Member

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    Hi again Baleboy,

    Saw your new post just after I posted the one above (I confess that it was written with interuptions from my BF wanting to check his email).

    You're right about the terra preta being abstract, the info I'm going on is from the few scientific papers on it that i could access through my uni. It's still conceptual for me, and I won't get to test it till summer (simply cause i don't have the time). I'm a 'whitecoat-in-training' (proto-scientist :lol: ), but not a very conventional one.

    Anyway, i think it will change the leachate fraction of nutrients in the soil, by blowing out the C:N ratio (thats the radical bit, but SOMETHING caused the unique properties of terra preta, and its human made, which means that there is a repeatable recipe) . Basically, a change in soil chemistry that may greatly reduce the leaching of nutrients through the soil profile, N P K Mg Fe Ca etc etc
    And its something to do with pure carbon levels in the soil, it'll probably take me years to work out what the other ingredients are, but its a pet project....

    No idea whether it will be feasable, but an interesting enough hypothesis. Space is limited where I live but the garden is spilling over the fences :lol:
    I'll work out a mix over spring and put it into the compost heap first, to see how it effects the composition, at least it won't hurt there, (honestly I think it'll be trial and error)...

    I WISH i had some ponds!

    It sounds like you've got lots going on already...... I'll post a list when I've actually worked it out and tried it, cause I don't want to lead people astray.

    Ichsani
     
  10. baleboy

    baleboy Junior Member

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    wow your over my head

    thanks for thew info ischani

    what does that name means by the way

    so will you just be putting carbon in you compost ?? from unburnt charcoal??
     
  11. Ichsani

    Ichsani Junior Member

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    Hi Marcus,

    Have been following the triponics invention of yours...nice work.... 8)
    The name is Javanese for "doer of good deeds", so I try to be a good deed doing kind of girl....parents had a pretty radical hippie phase and sent away our birth details to some swami/old dude who choose the names for what we're meant to do in life.... think my sister lucked it though, hers means "success"...!

    The carbon in the compost, I think I'll try to source some "pure" cabon (activated charcoal?), have to do some research on this, the same names keep being applied to different things! I know that ash doesn't cut it (washes away too quickly) but was wondering if coals left from a combustion stove would do the trick..........

    Maybe some charcoal additions to the vege beds for the aquaponics system would help with filtering the water? Also, have you had a look at any of the online stuff on natural swimming pools? I can't see why they can't be modified a little for fish stocks....at least there's some plans available. More info can't hurt!

    All I was trying to say with the microbe culture that you're making was that chicken poo is a source of potentially competing microbes (contamination) and that the microbes in the vat can't get to the cabon in the cardboard. The carbon in cardboard is in the form of lignin and cellulose.....thats broken down by fungi, not bacteria. Carbon from molasses is in the form of sugar, which is easily accessable to bacteria=lots of bacteria. Ditto for the urea.
    A really good book on microbes....Microbial Ecology 4th ed. by Atlas & Bartha
    A bit pricey, but the best source of info on these little buggies, all the others are clinical based (disease causing microbes only) and pretty useless for environmental applications.

    Most of the nutrient cycles on earth are accomplished by microbes, even the carbon cycle when it comes to closing the loop. Even those plants called 'nitrogen fixers' don't actually do it themselves, its the microbes that the plants feed sugars to that fix nitrogen. If you want to be really freaked out by how much depends (everything really!) on these little guys,
    read-
    'Gaia's Body, Towards a Physiology of the Earth' by Tyler Volk, Copernicus ISBN 0-387-98270-1 Its much cheaper too!

    I will post the correct type of charcoal/carbon when I find it. Best of luck mate,
    Cheers, Ichsani
     
  12. paige

    paige Junior Member

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    Check out remineralize.org

    Regarding rock dust, check out remineralize.org. Very good website, started by a woman who lives here in western, Massachusetts, USA. I've gotten rock dust at two different quarries and in both cases it was free. For them it's a waste product and they were thrilled to be able to get rid of some of it.

    One quarry was a place where big basalt hills are being dismantled, god knows for what. Basalt has a lot of calcium & magnesium. The other quarry was schist, which has other minerals in it, though I'm not sure what, besides silica, and what silica's good for I'm not certain. Granite rock dust is considered to be quite good.

    Do you Aussies know about Men of the Trees? This is an Australian group that plants trees. They've found trees planted with rock dust grow 5 times faster than those without. There's a link to them on remineralize.org.

    Paige
     
  13. barely run

    barely run Junior Member

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    We have a marble quarry near by...supplied the marble for Parliment House. Wonder if they have rock dust and how it would go. Will try to check it out ... working a few extra shifts this fortnight so might be a cpl weeks till I find out.
    Cathy :p
     
  14. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    Gee I feel like Homers Dumb Brother
    thats if hes got one duh

    Tezza
     
  15. ~Tullymoor~

    ~Tullymoor~ Junior Member

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    That's alright Tezza, I'm BOTH of Marge's sisters :lol: :lol:
     
  16. BlueDogsBark

    BlueDogsBark Junior Member

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    G' day Bale Boy,
    In northern NSW a number of organic and conventional farms use a by-product of the local basalt quarries called crusha-dust. It contains particles of basalt from 3mm to dust size. It is easy to spread around and the poultry love it too as it end up in their gizzards and helps digestion. The grass around the pile we have is thicker and healthier (it does'nt last long when we let the chooks & geese in the yard). The last time we got some it cost around $30.00 cubic metre.
    Here is a link to a site with a breakdown of what it contains.They call it Basalt dust.
    https://www.nor.com.au/community/organic ... gfertr.htm
    Hope this helps.
     
  17. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    Terra preta/bio char/ Amazonian Dark Earths/replicating it?

    One Sunday afternoon I started to watch what I thought was yet another dreary documentry on the foibles of the Amazon Rainforest clearing. It turned out to be a fabulous BBC documentary. Unfolding thousands of years of Amazonian agricultural history. Developing like a good detective story. I immediately saw the implications for all sorts of things composting, soil microrganisms, global warming, farming&gardening practices, using less fertilisers etc etc

    Since then I have been inspired to do some reasearch on Terra preta soils (or see Amazonian Dark Earths -in Permaculture forum.
    I have been putting everything I can find on Terra preta here:
    https://forums.hypography.com/earth-scie ... preta.html
    Please read and join in the discussion.
    There is still a lot to work out- especially for Austalian conditions.
    I am trying to see how possible it is to duplicate Terra preta soils- at first in pots.
     
  18. naturally inspired

    naturally inspired Junior Member

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    rock dust is meant to be pretty good for adding extra nutrients to the soils and for maintaining the mineral levels because they leach out their minerals slowly. You can get rock dust from most quarries. you will also be able to get a read out of which minerals the rock dust contains so you can be sure of what you are getting. you need to be wary of a couple of minerals to maek sure the levels are not too high. manganese and myabdelum (spelling**) in particular will cause problems if the level is too high as they stop the uptake of other minerals by plants. All this info is from Pat colebys book, natural farming which talks a lot about remineralisation of the soil through using lime, gypsum and dolomite. She tells of how australian soils are very low in calcium and magnesium minerals especially since land clearing and intensive contemporary farming practices were introduced. anyway. hope some of this has helped someone. I love this forum! it is so informative.
     
  19. spritegal

    spritegal Junior Member

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    I just typed a 2 page response to this thread but it mysteriously disappeared as it was posted, along with a PM to a fellow member, something wrong with the server?
     
  20. murray

    murray Junior Member

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    not as far as i am aware.
     

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