Questions For PDC Teachers(mostly) and Students

Discussion in 'General chat' started by Unmutual, Sep 10, 2013.

  1. kimbo.parker

    kimbo.parker Junior Member

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    i disagree - at a conceptual level and point out that 'this language' is a barrier to this discussion.

    ofcourse '10 ac per family is not sustainable', ,,,and all you have to do to fix this, is take out "per family" from the sentence....who is saying 10 ac per family?

    i have one family on 135 ac....it is not as i would have it.....laws (that can change) compel the 'usustainable' arrangement. ( we need to be a bit wary of definition here - sustainable for whom, i'm going to go with 'broader mankind')

    i and (others) suggest that permaculture types of system design come to their fore on a scale of landscapes, and that piddling about on a 1/4 ac is less than the designer is trained for, and fails to achieve a certain respectability of scale.

    you counter with " 10 ac per family is unsustainable " and i interpret this to mean "we can't all have acreage for design"

    at which point; i decide the language is not appropriate for the discussion because;

    recognise that the group assembled on any 10 ac - multiple families on multiple divisions what ever, have this option called permaculture.

    which can't really be broken up into individual families on their 1/4 - when it is, it becomes the organic garden irrelevancy...

    so to make permaculture 'the truth',
    one plays at a landscape level, even if that means doing permaculture as a group,,,your block, your suburb, your city.

    i repeat; to do permaculture, you would need to share with the others occupying the landscape,,,it is a landscape sized thing....


    and this is perfectly reasonable....this is the co-opting essence of the permaculture dream.
    you don't get transition towns from disconnected transitioners either

    the retreat back into 1/4 ac irrelevancy whilst blowing the permaculture trumpet is the province of organic gardeners.


    if you want to do permaculture on your own - your gonna need a landscape.

    if you don't mind sharing and co-opting then you can participate in the permaculture of the suburbia or other landscape you may live in.
    if you refuse permaculture at this level, and retreat back to your 1/4 ac, you can be a happy organic gardener.


    ps i have some issues with my counter argument - it is not mature - it lacks finesse....in theory you don't need a landscape at all,,permaculture design is just as at home in a shoe box on a desk when none of the components of the design are organic....but i balk at that 10ac throw away line....
     
  2. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    What makes you sure that is the whole course Rick?
     
  3. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    "A 10 acre block per family isn't sustainable. There's not enough land to scale that up to meet the needs of the world."

    I'm not sure what that means. Doesn't it depend?

    (family size, what the neighbours are doing, climate, is the 10 acres part of mulitple systems etc).

    I was thinking along the lines of kimbo, that considering 10 acres as an isolated unit was not sustainable, but I think that considering any sized piece of land as an isolated unit is agin permaculture, despite Permaculture promoting this concept in pretty much everything it does (Pc in the West at least). Is anyone doing design that doesn't have a solid line around zone four or five?
     
  4. kimbo.parker

    kimbo.parker Junior Member

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    Quote Originally Posted by eco4560
    "A 10 acre block per family isn't sustainable.
    There's not enough land to scale that up to meet the needs of the world. Permaculture has to work at all levels of scale or it is fundamentally flawed."

    :) disagree echo, on another point - the fundamental flaw allegation;

    einstiens relativity only works at a scale of the macro, it is hardly fundamentally flawed.
    quantum mechanics work at the scale of the very small, hardly fundamentally flawed.

    permaculture works at the scale of landscapes, hardly flawed,
    very small permaculture looks like organic gardening.

    1/4 ac is that sort of small
    organic gardening works at the scale of backyard. industrial organic starts trending out of its comfy scale.

    sure you can create models, even scale models of permaculture systems in your backyard....but these are models, functioning models, many are art, all can teach those that will learn,,,but they are akin to a scrapbook, a scaled down interpretation of a complex system of design for the design of systems....they are like exercise books for students that are an abstract of concepts they are learning.

    we use gardens as models of permaculture systems design....they themselves are not permaculture.....something named permaculture is hardly likely to fit in someone's backyard now is it.?

    this is what happened when we taught zones,,,,! big mistake.

    ponder this; does any one really believe that this Permaculture thing flies on the pure reason of locating the chook pen closer to the house???

    it was an example, a light hearted bit of easy speak to get energy conservation on the cognitve radar.....and it has been a running joke ever since.

    some permaculture sites even have sub forum - 'chooks' - where this deep deep aspect of systems design is given the bible treatment.

    _________________as long as organic gardeners have the permaculture ball,,,Permaculture as a design system for the design of all systems is less than it could be.

    frankly, i think the issue is old tired and pedantic,,,,and this probably comes from me.
    i'm not fussed either way, i'm just running an old old record.
     
  5. Unmutual

    Unmutual Junior Member

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    It isn't, it's roughly 22 hours(15 videos @ 1.5 hours each) of video(and boy does Geoff look young). So about 1/3rd of a PDC(total of 72 contact hours as per B. Mollison).
     
  6. 9anda1f

    9anda1f Administrator Staff Member

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    Don't forget the 22 hours is pure instruction and imparting of information. Geoff also spent hours answering each question he received. An in-person PDC has a lot of non-instructional time spent in just the logistics of putting on the event and the ongoing peppering of questions during and after the presentations. To me, the real value of Geoff's online PDC is the purity of the presentation, the continuity, and the depth of information he is able to put forth without distraction ... plus you get the videos to refer back to at any time!
     
  7. Unmutual

    Unmutual Junior Member

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    Oh no, this is something on youtube with Bill and Geoff, not Geoff's online PDC. The youtube videos(I haven't actually watched them all), from their titles, don't follow a complete course(obvious missing subject is community). There possibly could be other videos of the PDC that weren't released(or that I couldn't find). The quote function doesn't seem to want to nest, so here is the originating post:

    Geoff's PDC seems to be ~20 DVDs worth of information(30 hours?), plus the hours spent on answering questions(both on video and in the comments sections), plus the Earthworks course and the other DVDs he's released over the years(soil, urban, etc).
     
  8. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    So what is the difference between Kimbos concept of multiple families practicing permaculture within the boundaries of that 10 acre block and my imaginary community of multiple families in suburbia on their standard housing blocks, with a community garden in the centre in a township encompassing 10 acres?
     
  9. kimbo.parker

    kimbo.parker Junior Member

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    the difference?...


    multiple families all creating permaculture models in their backyards is remarkably different from multiple families doing actual permaculture on their combined 10 ac of landscape, which may comprise the block of houses they live in..


    and i must hasten to point out - there is that 10 ac bull shit again...as if permaculture has plenty of room to shine there on.....it doesn't, it can't.
    a 10 ac chunk of a functioning permaculture design that is not just a model,,,,might be the water supply, or part of the food gardens, etc.

    consider; you propose 10 ac of which there are 40 1/4 acre blocks all with one family on them. If i consider a family to equal 4 people, i find we have 160 people to provide for.
    you propose that all of them are living in the same space that you imagine we provide for them using permaculture design.

    i don't know if that is possible, i strongly doubt it.
    we are constrained by the carrying capacity of the land/climate.

    we are bound, hamstrung, knobbled, and totally screwed by the expectation of these families - to continue their consumptive norms, and their herd life as they like it.

    __________________

    just getting the water supply up to spec for 160 people can take all of that 10ac.
    __________________

    the objectives don't fit a 10 ac cut up any more than they fit a 1/4 ac.
    the best permaculture can do is a model, an abstract.

    when your block of 160 people are prepared to have the next blocks 160 people living with them on 'their' 10 ac, then we might be able to use their 10 ac for a water supply for the 320 of you.
    but you'll all starve because there is no food supply
    so we'll get the next 10 ac chunk with its resident population of 160 suburbanites, and we'll put them in amongst the 320, and use their vacated 10ac to get some food happening (assuming food will grow there,,,,and so on and so forth.

    ____________________

    this is where the co-opting came from....it was mission critical in the context of suburbia, and it screwed us around.
    it is why myself and others saw straight up that if we were going to be 'free' to do permaculture, we needed to get the space where co-opting (with fellow man) wasn't a necessity and we could get hold of an entire landscape.

    a landscape big enough to design a sustainable village - it mattered not that this rural landscape had laws prohibiting villages....it was all proof of concept stuff.
    and we come to learn real fast that 'carrying capacity' put some hard lines in place.
    ___________________

    and this is all too hard for many,most,more - all well and good to have answers to questions, but what if the answers really suck?

    __________________

    doing backyard permaculture, constrained to models, does not equate to implementing permaculture designs on a populated landscape such that the ultimate objectives are realised.,,,sustainability in the broadest sense.

    _________________

    raising some carrots whilst obstructing serious permaculture revolution and salvation of your own landscape, and settlement - by not actually stepping up to the challenge, by refusing to co-opt, whilst claiming to be of permaculture intent - is delusional....
    ____________________________________________________________________________________________

    here is an example of what those types do to Permaculture.

    Perth City is doing a major riverside development. The designs they have presented to the public are shockers....no Permaculture understanding at all...unsustainable monstrosities!
    The only people that can bring the design 'together' to achieve sustainability and avoid the nasties are Permaculture Designers.....not town planners, or architects, or any other profession or specialists....no one else has the training.
    The developers haven't got a fkn clue.

    but no one listens to Permaculture Designers - because they are seen to be 'gardeners'.....
    _________________________________________________________________________________________

    it's a basic basic issue that to the permaculture designer is a no brainer -
    biology is required to filter and maintain the rivers health.
    nothing else is so energy efficient, self perpetuating, etc etc etc....nature does this job best.
    the entire development must provide massive biology to offset the nasties it brings to the environment,,,,and it must not try and handball this obligation to another physical location else the development is not sustainable, doing that same bad shit as 50 years ago.
    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    where are the massive plantings of tea-tree to replace what has been removed from the river edges, replaced by walls, asphalt, and grassed parks.
    this concrete and glass monster ,that has its shit go right to the edge of the river.....bad look, bad design, no botanicals, no alternatives, no clues.

    Permaculture has the numbers; this shit should not be able to get past those numbers....but it does.
    easy.
    because Permaculture has been turned into organic gardening by the western capitalistic generally white demographic that really wants permaculture to offer them something more, and not something less.

    unfortunately with that particular demographic. permaculture offers some real threats to their consumptive norms.
    permaculture is waisted on them.

    give it to an african village and it means more.
    give ti to a suburban westerner and it means less.
    unless - they turn it into organic gardening and keep it confined to their backyards, or even better, make a business out of it ..
     
  10. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    I agree, the Perth Riverside Development is 'a shocker' ... from a holistic/integrated/socio-ecological (permaculture) land-use planning perspective, that is.

    If only they had consulted with a master planner, who just happens to also be a permaculture designer ;).
     
  11. kimbo.parker

    kimbo.parker Junior Member

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    oops shit, yes sorry marko

    oops shit, yes sorry marko,,,tell me, are you a one of, why don't architects, engineers, town planners, property developers and all those other professionals the herd trust to make enlightened leadership decisions...have basic Permaculture nowse?.

    why don't economists get the plain and simple economics behind the concept of 'free',,,why is the fkn economic rationale fuzzing on the obvious? free, self replicating, self maintaining, environmentally responsive, multifunctional systems - free.

    why don't town planners with a river running through their focal towns get the basic dumb as bottom line of what it takes to manage a river bank such that it is all done to the absolute best ....for free.,,,with botanicals....and that this is first and foremost, access and such must work around these fundamentals.

    why don't the engineers grab the idea of self replicating, self maintaining, solar powered, organisms that could full-fill their design challenges and include botanicals?

    and where the hell are all the gen x and y Environmental Scientists the system has been churning out for a good couple of decades....where are these pricks? what are they saying if it isn't permaculture?

    how can that Perth foreshore shit be real in 2013?
    huh?


    didn't any body invent a design system that took care of all this?.......


    you've seen the designs for it, you know the players involved, how is it they are so missing the point. and those other morons " The City Gatekeepers",,,,those guys don't like the Dubai look, they want that Gold Coast look.
    has the world gone mad? ( rhetorical, yes ofcourse )...

    i want the permaculure look.......i want thickets of leptospermum spp. and sedges, reeds, and an all botanical response to any design that has the gall to locate itself right on the river....
    or what,,,(tell me anyone), there is no alternative that is free, there is not even oportunity cost, as there is no next best idea,,,,it is river management using botanicals and nature....or it is what? ,,,a machine, something with bacteria?, what....there is no engineered alternative, there is no tech fix....
    so where lies the confusion.?

    why?
    is it because Permaculture the brand has all the design cred of gardening australia?....
    is it because the shit got hi jacked by organic gardeners? ha! ....
     
  12. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    Yes, I am, and in a single word, money. But not all have been totally corrupted by it. There are some (albeit a very small minority) of 'developers' that have decided to forego large profits for a considerably smaller - perhaps even a 'break even' - profit margin, and in doing so have embraced the principles of ESD by incorporating the same into their overall designs. Over the years, I have highlighted many of their efforts here, in my posts to the PRI Forum. Likewise, there are many planners, architects, urban designers, landscape architects and other 'development' support professionals who pride themselves on the work they do towards furthering the principles of ESD. Likewise, I have showcased their work over the years here, through my posts. Some time in the future I'll get around to writing a book about it, and Kimbo, you'll be one of the first people to receive a signed copy.
     
  13. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    Kimbo I also don't quite have the vocabulary to describe what I see in my head on this one. And I haven't spent the years thinking and experiencing permaculture that you have. So I'm going away to think about this for a year or so. I'll be back when I get my head straight.

    I had hoped to wow you with my mathematical brilliance that if you divided the land mass of Australia up amongst our population there would be a postage stamp for each of us. But fu@% it - I did the maths and we would all fit on 10 acre blocks after all.
     
  14. kimbo.parker

    kimbo.parker Junior Member

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    gosh, i'm sorry guys

    nah, you're good, it's me.....must be the same time every year i come here and rock the boat with just one idiots notions,,,
    my disability.....and you guys do the 'willow' and prove to be sustainable,,,because sure as shit, you'll be there next year when this problem returns.
    .....but we progress.
    Zizek has opened a channel for me that i can use - a place to dwell with legitimacy whilst the major personal philosophies that make up my ID lay in ruin.
    so this years outpouring was less intense than the last, more circumspect....next year's is going to be better.

    some bullshit between mars and uranus has me doing glove puppet shit and i'm on to it.

    your patience is why your good at your job....hug ...
    k
     
  15. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    Any bloke who can butcher a road kill sheep on his way home doesn't earn the idiot tag from me mate. (I still get a kick out of that story...)
    That's reserved for the ones who sipped their skinny double shot mocha lattes from their reusable cups as they drove off from the polling booth in their air-conditioned 4 WD's after voting for Tony....
     
  16. helenlee

    helenlee Junior Member

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    I did the maths and we would all fit on 10 acre blocks after all.

    Some of us need a bit more than 10 acres ;)
     
  17. kimbo.parker

    kimbo.parker Junior Member

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    nod to the irony,

    [video=youtube;bOKl04TWVsU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOKl04TWVsU[/video]
     
  18. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    Did you take into account the size of land needed for some of our medicinal plants? :D
     
  19. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    I presumed some would need some and others more, but those that used more would eat less as they spent more time contemplating the meaning of the colour orange....
     
  20. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    Orange? I contemplate that which makes up Metatron's cube & Nature's 1st pattern.
     

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