Psychology and Permaculture + & -

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by david n, Dec 3, 2008.

  1. david n

    david n Junior Member

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    This is a huge area which can be messy and counterproductive to dicuss without a talented pyschologists around but I thought I'd risk a few points I find useful & interesting anyway.

    ++++
    While there is disagreement, healthy behavior and thought are often equated with maturity and for this 3 things are required, things permaculture (amoungst many other things) can provide,

    1) The Perception of control.......... growing your own stuff helps with this

    2) The feeling of connection.............this basically means feeling a part of something bigger and more imporant than oneself and one's needs, usually this means family, society and it's rules, but with enviromental movements all life and the planet can be added, even better.

    3) The pursuit of challenge.......anyone who's tried permaculture knows it allows for this

    Without these things people are prone to try to use others as objects to serve their needs, "disturbed object relations".

    - - - - - -

    On the potentialy negative side, all moral causes run the risk of producing self-righteousness, where an individual or group see themselves absolutely morally perfect and outsiders as completely immoral, ironically it is people who see things this way who are generally remembered as doing the most evil in the world(communism, war on terror etc). I've certainly been in that head space. Interestingly the treatment for anger problems is to try to get the person to realise noone is morally perfect including them . I find forcing myself to remember my own moral shortcomings makes me deal with others I see as "baddies" more constructively. I find permaculture people are usually trying to improve the world by improving their own conduct, not bullying or killing others, but the risk is always there in any cause.

    Just thoughts, I've only just found this site but have been keen on permaculture for 20 years, sorry in advance if I make any stupid postings. Good on you for having this site.

    (the ideas here are mainly based on the work of Albert J Bernstein Ph D).
     
  2. trishandpete

    trishandpete Junior Member

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    Re: Psychology and Permaculture + & -

     
  3. thepoolroom

    thepoolroom Junior Member

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    Re: Psychology and Permaculture + & -

    I think you're onto something. Gardening has long been used as a therapy for disabled and mentally ill people, and also people with drug or behavioural problems. For all the reasons you mention (sense of control, feeling connected, pursuit of challenge) it seems to work well.

    I think it also reconnects people with simple cause-and-effect relationships, as well as the concept of sowing now to reap later - both concepts that seem to have been lost from modern society in many ways.
     
  4. JoanVL

    JoanVL Junior Member

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    Re: Psychology and Permaculture + & -

    True.

    Going into the garden keeps me relatively sane.

    Digging a big hole to plant a tree gets rid of pent up anger.

    Inventing no-impact and no-cost ways of achieving results in the garden is always fun, and a challenge. (Eg, thrown out metal frames rescued for growing beans on, an old fan guard used as a riddler, solid red clay used for garden edging, strips torn from old Tshirts used for soft garden ties.....)

    And then when you've finished working you can sit in your garden chair and think philosophical thoughts.
     
  5. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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  6. david n

    david n Junior Member

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    Re: Psychology and Permaculture + & -

    Thanks for those interesting links, one other possibly good thing about Permaculture I just thought of is that with its' encouragment of exploration, originality and getting off the beaten track, things are inevitably going to go wrong (they sure do for me) which may be humbling, a healthy reminder you are not perfect. (obviously everything in a persons life going wrong would be undesirable and would create a sense of no control ).

    Speaking from personaI experience, if you're in a movement based solely on words, ideology, reciting "gospel", nothing is ever going to go wrong, the "wrong" will always be in your enemies, it is easy to think you are perfect, all knowing, everything bad is "their" fault. I agree with the links that low self-esteem is counterproductive but many psychologists think (& I agree) self esteem can go too high to, becoming narcissim, a much more dangerous kettle of fish.

    Healthy self-esteem, between low-self esteem and narcissism seems like another "ecological balance" permaculture can cultivate.
     
  7. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    Re: Psychology and Permaculture + & -

    A very profound idea very simply put.
    Thank you sincerely for that.
    What you say remands me of those born-again, shiny-faced, happy-clappy religions from S. USA. Their Certainty scares me. It is sad to see them infiltrating Australian society.
    I was in the States during the Cold War-(only 24 years ago!) and unfortunately ran into an (all white) southern Baptist convention in of all places the (then) wonderful ethnically & religiously-diverse, musically-wondrous New Orleans.
    The Baptists told me they wanted to "nuke" USSR because it/they was/were "un-Godly" ! Very scary people. But they all had their place reserved for them in Heaven by God.

    I am looking for a garden quote about how gardens teach you humility.
    I can't find it on the net. But will swap your profundity with some simple quotes I did find
    * To plant a garden is to believe in the future
    * All the flowers of tomorrow are in the seeds of yesterday
    * All the flowers of tomorrow are in the seeds of today

    And, to lighten the mood, a quote for our times? :)
    "Unemployment is capitalism's way of getting you to plant a garden."
    ~Orson Scott Card
     
  8. david n

    david n Junior Member

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    Re: Psychology and Permaculture + & -

    I also found New Orleans enchanting about 20 years ago, I've sometimes wondered if it is an example of "edge" Holmgren & others talk about, meeting place of Black, White, French cultures and races, but have never developed the idea past that, certainty it is diverse, the baroque, luxurient, almost jazz-like (from memory) vegetation surely a factor too.

    It does seem to me it is hard to appreciate the virtues of (different) "others" without some humility. The permaculture gardening ideal of finding a positive role for every species if at all possible, no matter how seemingly repulsive, maggots for fish food say, should apply to social ideals too, some behaviors of individual humans should not be tolerated but it would surely be the rare individual who can't help out in some way (even if from maximum security).

    I expect this point has been made before in Permaculture.

    I can't help wondering if this is Obama's ideal, he seems to be employing his "enemies", I don't follow it that closely, but he certainly embodies not seeing things in black and white, since he is racially a "shade of grey".The American Presidency not the first place i would have looked for this, i suppose time will tell.

    Thanks for your comments
     
  9. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    Re: Psychology and Permaculture + & -

    A funny NO story
    We got to the airport, not knowing where to stay.
    Looked at the adds for hotels listed by price. At the very bottom was a VERY cheap 1/2 star-but right in the middle of the Old part of town.
    When we arived at the "Hotel"- arun down converted old mansion the owner said
    "I get so many Australians staying here. It is amazing-no other hotels seem to get as many as me. Amazing"
    We agreed that this was indeed a truly quirky act of fate. (while trying not to smile)
    Interpret what you will about Ozzie travellers.
    (BTW he also apologised about the Baptist Convention)

    Yes, time will tell.
    But 'times' they certainly seem to be 'a'changing'
    [​IMG]
     
  10. david n

    david n Junior Member

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    Re: Psychology and Permaculture + & -

    I also didn't have a plan when I arrived in New Orleans by train, I was sitting by a fountain by the station a friendly old guy struck up a conversation and suggested a $5 a night hotel not far from the French Quarter, the manager had no teeth, my room had no windows and was tiny except that the ceiling was incredably high. It did have a small fan. I remember sitting in the yard late at night watching a gang of alley cats when a cockroach the size of a sparrow landed on me, quite a shock for a Kiwi, I screamed and every light in the place went on, thinking it was another murder perhaps. Still it all seemed thoroughly magical.

    Shortly after I started my studies in Chicago, what a comedown, subways, grey, bitter cold and more grey, giant rats, dehumanisingly vast architecture, the cockroaches were smaller but would climb into my food while it was cooking. Turned me into quite the back to nature/self-sufficiency enthusiast.
     
  11. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    Re: Psychology and Permaculture + & -

    Yes New Orleans was one of the few "real" cities I found in the States.
    They even refused to have the outside of the old quarter houses pained (Disneyfied)
    I hope it is getting itself back together after Katrina.

    Every corner there was a black-kid or a pub playing wonderful Jazz and I'm not a Jazz fan.
    Did you get to Kingdom Hall?

    Ozziies love NZ 'secretaries/etc'. They are so much fun.
    The screams are so loud when they pick up the phone to find a plastic spider attached to it
    Of course it helps most Kiwis think/know? they are going to be bitten daily by something venomous in Oz anyway :) ;)
    Was St. Patrick born in NZ or something?

    So as not to get completly off-topic
    Some stuff on gardening threapy
    https://www.seekbooks.com.au/book/Garden ... 596222.htm


    These people are looking for volunteers in inner Sydney.
    https://www.missionaustralia.com.au/news ... ntally-ill

    https://www.gordonmoyes.com/2008/10/10/g ... g-therapy/

    There is even an association for it
    https://ediblegardens.htav.org.au/
     
  12. david n

    david n Junior Member

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    Re: Psychology and Permaculture + & -

    RE:Healthy Self-esteem, the happy medium
    I was just thinking about my comment that Permaculture can help lower excessively high self-esteem alongside the more conventional(often govt policy) goal of raising excessively low self-esteem, it was nice of you to say that was profound, I feel quite conceited now, but It was just a thought. I believe permaculture humbles me and makes me as a human feel humbled in the face of the rest of nature but I can think of the odd narcissistic gardener, I suppose it's conceivable they'd be worse without the gardening. The are a lot of other things in anyones life they can attach importance to to confirm their self-image.

    I am more sure society can only have so many narcissists before it becomes uncivilised and that it is unfortunate Western government policy is usually to try to raise the self esteem of any individual or group in/causing trouble ( I got this idea off Roy F Baumeister and his eye-opening book "Evil: Inside human cruelty and violence" 1996) he argues convincingly egotism is often the cause of the problems in the first place, so they're putting out fire with gasoline.

    I do think cultivating healthy self-esteem ( most of the time somewhere between high and low) is a sound goal but am not at all sure how to acheive it
     
  13. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    Re: Psychology and Permaculture + & -

    https://www.abc.net.au/rn/allinthemind/s ... 435766.htm

     
  14. thepoolroom

    thepoolroom Junior Member

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    Re: Psychology and Permaculture + & -

    Oh wow, great find Michaelangelica!
     
  15. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    Re: Psychology and Permaculture + & -

    Yes it is well worth listening too
    Anyone in any helping profession-teaching, nursing, counselling- and in urban planning should listen to it.
    I wonder what psychological harm our now-tiny, garden -less building blocks (in NSW) will have on the future?

    Usually the ABC only keeps the sound on site for 4 weeks then you just have the transcript. I like to listen while having the transcript open.

    The effects of greenery in reducing the crime rate was astounding! An unexpected bonus.

    I think ecotherapist is the job I've been training for all my life. Pity there are no jobs.

    "
    "
    https://www.smh.com.au/news/environment/ ... 33377.html
    https://www.smh.com.au/news/environment/ ... tml?page=2

    BTW
    I hear Obarma has advertised for an organic gardener for the White House.
    This will P**** off a few chemical companies like Dow!
     
  16. JoanVL

    JoanVL Junior Member

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    Re: Psychology and Permaculture + & -

    BTW
    I hear Obarma has advertised for an organic gardener for the White House.
    This will P**** off a few chemical companies like Dow!


    He'll get Prince Charles on side though......

    I've always been an organic gardener,( though when I first started, my husband reckoned I'd got the word wrong, and thought it was 'orgasmic gardening'!)

    We keep hearing good things about Obama - hope he sticks to his principles.
     
  17. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    Re: Psychology and Permaculture + & -

    Don't knock Charlie, I talk to the plants; hate modern architecture; would love to see a Prince's Fund here to give small business a go ( No venture capital in Oz) AND we share a birth date.
    If I was him though I wouldn't pay any tax as is his right

    Some more resources
    'Horticultural therapy' seems to be the magic words to look up
    [​IMG]Horticultural Therapy-Related Resources
    American horticultural Society web page
    https://www.ahta.org/links/
    [​IMG]
    Cultivate NSW
    https://www.cultivatensw.org.au/default.aspx?subpage=0,0
    (free email newsletter)
    [​IMG]

    Horticultural Therapy Association of Victoria

    https://ediblegardens.htav.org.au/
    who even have a short couse coming up
    [​IMG]
    The Yanks seem to be way ahead of Oz.
    Healthcare and Therapeutic Design
    https://www.asla.org/PPNIndividualHome.aspx?id=3308
    [​IMG]
     
  18. Ojo

    Ojo Junior Member

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    It's a Trap

    In March 2007, the BBC broadcast in the UK a three-part documentary called The Trap, by the controversial British film maker, Adam Curtis. Its message was that "a simplistic model of human beings as self-seeking, almost robotic, creatures" plus an overriding belief in human selfishness have created "a cage" for human beings in modern society.

    The pattern of the whole for which we search is the same as the pattern of ourselves. Once we recognize our needs fully and place an equal value on meeting them all, we will be obliged to look after all the corresponding aspects of the world as a whole, which actually or potentially contains everything we need.

    Our release now depends on rediscovering a way to value the wholeness of being human and learning to apply it in our relationship with the world.
    excerpts
    https://www.realitysandwich.com/return_being_human
     
  19. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    Re: It's a Trap

    Very interesting, thanks Ojo.
    We need to change ourselves and that will change the world?
    Or
    Change ourselves first then the world?
    or
    'Doctor heal thyself"?
    or
    What do you need. What do you want-are they the same?
    I will have a look at the web site later, I have some spammers to slay!
     
  20. Ojo

    Ojo Junior Member

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    Re: Psychology and Permaculture + & -

    As Ram Dass put it,
    "Remember, Be Here Now"
    from Buckaroo Bonzai
    "Don't be mean, remember no matter where you go, there you are."
    An old AA saying
    "All I can do for you is work on me, all you can do for me is work on you."
    all we can really change is us.

    a few episodes of The Trap.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1r99OPKVF4

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B71r2zyTGg8

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_Y_zL3BuUQ

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw61I5_P3dU

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEE2Z4yBcWM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQXXDW0_y5s

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRh1he3u99c

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUA3W8SmqZ4
     

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