Psychological cons of Urine in the garden?

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by sweetpea, Aug 26, 2010.

  1. purecajn

    purecajn Junior Member

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    I've read somewhere that your supposed to dilute it when directly fertilizing the garden, or plants of choice. Is this so? and/or can someone provide the appropriate mixture levels for same please? BTW, it's a good idea to label the bottle your peeing in for the compost. I had my ol' lady grab my Sobe green tea bottle and take a good swig. She thought the tea went bad and flip'd out when I enlightened her.
     
  2. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    it can be used neat but always only water around the root zone, we usually mix ours with dish pre-rinse water or dishwash water, there is no set down rate ie.,. 10% or 50%for us it is how much liquid we need to share a round.

    what this? using urine is a greenhouse gas problem? how many actually use it to make any difference? the earth climate change worship pundents are already saying us gardener who mulch are causing problems, what happens in the wild of a healthy habitat then? no reality in that. does the balnce get mentioned about how much less reticulated wae is used in homes that recycle their own wee, how much less energy is taken to move flushed urie to the sewerage farm?

    len
     
  3. Lumbuck Thornton

    Lumbuck Thornton Junior Member

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    I'm on your side. Urine applied to the surface breaks down to release Nitrogen gas which adds to the greenhouse effect. It is best applied below the surface in the soil about 100mm where it can be bound up before evapourating. This gives best usefulness to the plants as well and can be used on more plants.

    If you don't apply you urine to plants then it generally goes down the toilet. A composting toilet some urine would bind up and some would evapourate. A septic system delivers water probably not where the plants are you want to fertilise. If you have a pump this generates greenhouse gas in use, production and servicing. If your toilet goes to town sewer then it goes through many pumps and at the sewerage treatment farm carbon has to be added and larger energy using aeration pumps are needed to help drive the microbiological processes to break down the urine along with the other biological material. Methane is sometimes harvested but lots of this is also often lost directly to the atmosphere along with more Nitrogen.

    So in short if you can properly manage you urine yourself then it takes some load off the planet and it is a resource.
     
  4. adrians

    adrians Junior Member

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    nitrogen is NOT a green house gas. It is a gas comprising about 78% of the air we breath.
     
  5. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    Agreed, quite the opposite in fact, as ammonium bicarbonate would sequester CO2 a little.

    What i do find surprising is, the man made CO2 Gasses still continue to be made, yet we hear little about them
     
  6. Lumbuck Thornton

    Lumbuck Thornton Junior Member

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    Just relaying what I have seen in what I believe are reputable documents.
    The reuse of nutrients is the main reason for urine reuse but it has certainly been suggested what happens to it now is quite detrimental, not just wasteful, even if it is just assocaited with the energy used in processing it.
     
  7. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    don't understand lumbuck?

    "even if it is just assocaited with the energy used in processing it. "

    what do our bodies do if we don't produce waste ie.,. urine?

    have you got links to show us the meaning?

    takes nothing to pee in a bucket and mix it with some dish water and walk out to the gaden and pour it around some plants, might as well pee into a bucket as pee in the toilet.

    len
     
  8. Lumbuck Thornton

    Lumbuck Thornton Junior Member

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    Apply Urine just below Ground to reduce greenhouse emissions !

    I did not have to look far to find concerns about increased greenhouse gas emissions associated with high nitrogen fertilisers (including urine!)

    https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/05/another-environment-worry-nitrogen.html

    This is the industrial way of doing it but I am sure permaculture can find better ways.
    https://www.innoflow.com.au/files/p...eminar Presentation by Dr G.Tchobanoglous.pdf

    The point is that nitrogen rich fertiliser application is better if it is done below ground because you get more benefit and less greenhouse gas emissions and potential for run-off contamination of waterways.

    I am not saying don't produce urine.

    The challenge for permaculture is to find the most practical way of integrating below ground application of urine into their gardens at minimal expense and maximum benefit to plants.
     
  9. Burra Maluca

    Burra Maluca Junior Member

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    Doesn't seem to difficult a challenge - just pour it onto your compost heap...
     
  10. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    I would be surprised if nitrogen was a GH/GW problem. N run off certainly is. This can be stopped with charcoal and/or Terra preta practices.

    Nitrogen trifluoride is one of several gases used during the manufacture of liquid crystal flat-panel displays, thin-film solar cells and microcircuits and is a problem. It is thousands of times more effective at warming the atmosphere than an equal mass of carbon dioxide.
     
  11. andrew curr

    andrew curr Moderator

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    could i get a copy
    would guarantee tickets to opening nite
     
  12. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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  13. andrew curr

    andrew curr Moderator

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    a copy of the urine play?
     
  14. Lumbuck Thornton

    Lumbuck Thornton Junior Member

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    An Inconvenient Convenience

    a short 10 minute play

    by

    Lumbuck Thornton

    Cast

    HUSBAND – Calm Radical Neighbourhood Environmentalist, 40s
    WIFE - Conservative 40s
    LOCAL 1,2,3,4,5 - (local identities from the community and a dog!)

    Settings

    Setting 1: A bedroom with ensuite (dividing door sliding towards audience). External wall on the other side of the bedroom with a pushbike stored outside.
    
    Setting 2: Local park setting is a community food garden - compost bin, worm farm, bins

    Time

    A time of extreme water, energy and financial restriction associated with climate change.
    Motivated by the film ‘An Inconvenient Truth’ by Al Gore, ‘The Weather Makers’, a book by Tim Flannery and the toilet humour of the film “Kenny” by Shane and Clayton Jacobson. WARNING: Biogas is the “nuclear” of the “green” energy sources and specialist gas safety and hygiene precautions must be taken in real life.

    “Public Convenience” is the term long used by some people who can not bring themselves to use the word “Toilet”. The development of the “public convenience” was a major breakthrough in public hygiene, sanitation and freshening of air. The number and availability of flushing toilets in a house or a community soon became a measure of affluence and development. As we are now learning in the West, “convenience” is not always good for the future of our health, the environment and our social development.

    “An Inconvenient Convenience” introduces the concept of a “Community Return” to help manage neighbourhood toilet, dog and other waste, people’s expanding waist lines and wastage of lives due to poor thought. Ironically similar communal toilets we might start installing in the west are still being installed today in some parts of the world where they have never had flushing toilets.

    This play is designed to combat climate change and be presented by a mobile touring pair of actors. Most props, extra actors and a venue can be loaned from the local community.

    An Inconvenient Convenience

    A BEDROOM WITH A SLIDING DOOR PARTITION TO TOILET BOWL (FACING STAGE), VANITY UNIT TO THE FAR SIDE OF STAGE AND SHOWER ROSE BEHIND IT (POSITIONED SO WHEN YOU SQUAT DOWN IN SHOWER ONLY YOUR HEAD CAN BE SEEN BY THE AUDIENCE).

    THE LIGHTS COME UP ENOUGH TO MAKE OUT BOTH CHARACTERS IN BED WAITING FOR THE CLOCK RADIO TO GO OFF. ROUTINE POST 9/11 NEWS. (Recording or an off stage news reader. “There have been more bombings today….”)

    WIFE: (reaches across blindly to turn off the radio then elbows
    HUSBAND to get out of bed).
    You better get up if you are going for a bike ride.

    HUSBAND: (Lights still down he feels his way and stiffly rolls and staggers out of bed and onto the toilet) Ahhh! (relief) (Recording of toilet noises or backstage, whoopy cushion and plop!)

    WIFE: (angrily yells from the bed) Shut the door if you are going to stink the place out!

    HUSBAND & WIFE: (slides forward the door and slumps on the toilet. Wakes up on toilet and pulls on bike gear, loudly flushes toilet, washes hands, grabs pushbike helmet and exits. They pass at the foot of the bed and he proceeds out to the pushbike and she to the shower. He wheels his bike off stage and she is about to disrobe when the lights go down)

    HUSBAND & WIFE: (lights come up, he wheels bike back, shirt and face covered in sweat, he steps in side and WIFE is drying her hair. He takes his shirt off to get in the shower and the lights go down)
    LIGHTS COME UP DULL AGAIN NEXT MORNING BOTH CHARACTERS ARE IN BED JUST WAITING FOR THE CLOCK RADIO. ROUTINE POST 9/11 NEWS. (Recording or an off stage newsreader describing more bombings etc.)

    WIFE (reaches across blindly to turn off the radio and goes to elbow the HUSBAND but he is already out of bed).

    WIFE: You better – oh….. (she notices he is already up).

    HUSBAND: (This time he goes outside under a spotlight and picks up a cardboard box from beside the bike before again shutting himself in the bathroom (and light comes up some more). He pulls out an old cake drying rack and places it in the base of the shower. He takes out a newspaper of which he takes one sheet and folds it to be double thickness and places it on the rack. He takes out a toilet roll and places it on the floor outside the shower and puts two drink bottles up on the cabinet. He takes one drink bottle and squats down in the shower. (Recording of peeing into bottle or do this pouring water back stage) (He carefully lifts another identical pre-filled bottle of water out from behind the cabinet and screws the lid on. He reaches out for the toilet paper and some more toilet paper then carefully rolls up the newspaper and folds it so it slides into the bottle and the ends fold in the top. He washes and dries his hands then carefully screws the lid on and puts everything carefully back in the box. He pulls on his riding bike gear and grabs pushbike helmet and the box.

    See you (as he sneaks out the door. Outside he puts down the box and carefully fits the drink bottles onto holders on his pushbike and rides off.

    WIFE: (angrily she sits up in bed looking to audience) Something is not right…. He didn’t flush the toilet! (She holds her nose to investigate)…He didn’t use the toilet!... He must have used that cardboard box!!! (the lights go down)
    LIGHTS COME UP DULL NEXT MORNING BOTH CHARACTERS ARE IN BED JUST WAITING FOR THE CLOCK RADIO. ROUTINE POST 9/11 NEWS. (Recording or an off stage newsreader describing more bombings etc.)

    WIFE (reaches across blindly to turn off the radio and knows she does not have to elbow or say anything. In fact he has a real spring in his step and seems remarkably happy and she decides to challenge him about what he is hiding.

    WIFE: (As he comes back in with the cardboard box.)
    You’ve got a real spring in your step?

    HUSBAND: Yeah, I am feeling pretty good. (It sounds pretty honest but he does not stop and again he follows his new routine in the shower.

    WIFE: (She jumps out of bed and gets on her riding gear ready to confront him with a surprise.)
    Can I come with you?

    HUSBAND: Yeah, hold this. (and he hands her one of the drink bottles.)
    WIFE: Shit (and she almost drops it because it is very warm)

    HUSBAND: No this has got the shit in it, that is full of urine! Warm isn’t it.

    WIFE: (She hands it back quickly) I am still coming with you.
     
  15. Lumbuck Thornton

    Lumbuck Thornton Junior Member

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    Part 2

    HUSBAND: Yeah no worries. (He retrieves some food scraps from the rubbish bin, wraps them in a sheet of newspaper and puts them in a plastic bag.) Do you think the dog is smart enough to show us where he just crapped in the yard? (He hands her another sheet of newspaper knowing the response he will get. They locate, paper and bag the dog poo and load up the bikes. They wheel the bikes off stage and the curtains close. They wheel the bikes into the back of the hall behind the audience and park their bikes. They are passed by several locally recruited actors all carrying drink bottles ! Some are walking, jogging, riding bikes and one is using walking frame all loaded up with multiple drink bottles and plastic bags full of newspaper! They all proceed past and up through the audience and through the partially opened curtains.)

    WIFE: I had no idea there were so many people out this early in the morning (then she notices all the bags and bottles, points and shakes her head) They aren’t all full of ….

    HUSBAND: Why don’t you ask them?

    WIFE: I can’t do that (She turns to look forward again and as they approach the curtains open to reveal a wire mesh enclosure with a large sign.

    

    Around are lots of people all holding bags and x-drink bottles.)

    Local 1: We were wondering when he would bring you along to join the super secret sustainability society!

    WIFE: I thought this was just a community garden?

    Local 1: So did we until it became so popular we realised we needed a toilet. We worked out a way of harnessing all the nutrients and energy potential and solved a few other environmental, health, sustainability and conservation problems in the process. Look I will show you.

    HUSBAND: (Takes the bottles and the dog waste over to the drums labelled “Biogas” and “Urine”. The paper “bon bon” is pulled partially from the bottle and posted into the biogas drum. The urine bottle is emptied, rinsed and emptied again into the urine drum. The food scraps go in the compost.)

    PEOPLE ARE BUZZING AROUND LIKE BEES IN THE GARDENS. THE HUSBAND TAKES OVER FROM A GUY WITH A LAPTOP COMPUTER. HE PROCEEDS TO PROVIDE A COMMENTARY ENTERING THE CONTRIBUTIONS AND THE WITHDRAWALS. THERE ARE DOGS TIED UP OUTSIDE.

    Local 1: (Walks up and holds up an apple core.)

    HUSBAND: Here is (Local 1) with an apple core (he clicks the keyboard twice). Is it going to be the Chooks, Compost, Wormfarm or Biogas? (watches him go towards the wormfarm) Worm farm! (and he clicks on the wormfarm icon)

    WIFE: You’ve got chooks! (she lifts the lid on the laying box on the end of the wire mesh cage that extends off the stage and pulls out an egg).

    HUSBAND: Are you taking that egg? I will need to log it on the computer!

    Local 1: Look above your head and turn around the hanging sign.

    WIFE: She sees a high satellite dish on the roof of the chook house (and on turning around the sign on the chain she reads) “Foxtel !”.

    Local 2: (Walks up with a bag of Recyclables & Food Scraps)

    HUSBAND: (Local 2) Food scraps wrapped in newspaper bundles to go to the Chooks, Rotary Compost, Wormfarm and Biogas.

    Local 3: Barrow load of lawn clippings and Autumn leaves. I found this litter on the way as well.

    HUSBAND: Wow, we hardly see any litter any more. Any weeds? No, Give a handful to the chooks, compost, worm farm and the rest to the biogas drum.

    Local 4: Dead bird, Weeds & Dog Crap, Recyclables

    HUSBAND: Biogas thankyou.

    Local 5: Snails (and proceeds to the chooks) and old Mrs Wallace’s garbage. (drops in the garbage bin)

    HUSBAND: (Showing his wife) Our whole neighbourhood now only uses a few garbage bins costing less to pick up in energy, noise and emissions. We are going to collectively negotiate with Council for a rebate – that’s what a lot of these computer stats are for. The other rebate we are after is for water conservation given how much we have reduced our toilet flushing. This place also provides its own rewards in terms of food, friendships and all the above! (pointing to the sign)

    Local 6: (turns on the biogas (real gas bottled gas concealed) and puts on a kettle.) Can you imagine a smell so bad that you can light it? You don’t want the match to blow out!

    HUSBAND: (turns to the queue of people leaving and enters the produce they are taking out)

    Local 1: 1 Egg.

    Local 2: 1 Cucumber and 3 corn cobs.

    Local 3: Half a barrow load of compost.

    Local 4: Tub of worm castings.

    Local 5: 10 plums and 4 potatoes.

    Local 6: A cup of biogas fired soup – it is close enough to lunch time.

    HUSBAND: It’s not just what they take. People are organising to do things before and after they visit – exercise they may not have undertaken (as he catches a frizbee).

    BLACKBOARD “NEXT WORKING BEE TUESDAY, BIOGAS DRUM CHANGE OVER 11 SEPTEMBER. CYCLING GROUP RIDE SATURDAY 9AM HERE, CAMP FIRE SATURDAY NIGHT, GREENHOUSE SEEDLING PROPOGATION GROUP SUNDAY 4PM. TOILET TRAINING FOR NUTRIENT RECOVERY, WATER CONSERVATION AND GOOD HEALTH WORKSHOP SUNDAY 10AM. GENERAL MEETING 11AM SUNDAY.” MONTHLY CHICKEN HEALTH CHECK 3PM SUNDAY.

    AWARDS & ACHIEVEMENTS

    LOCAL 1 – Not flushing the toilet for 3 months.
    LOCAL 2 – Advanced recyclable sorting and preparation.
    LOCAL 3 – No litter sighted for 3 weeks in park. Everyone knows we are watching.

    HUSBAND: Hats off everyone, here comes someone making their last contribution. (Plastic Barrel is wheeled up in a wheelbarrow with an official letter from the Health Authority in a sealed plastic pouch.) Another reverse cremation in which the departed make their own gas and donate it back to the community to minimise their last greenhouse emissions. Bacteria degrade the body into trace elements, nutrients and water and the bones are later buried or mulched under health authority supervision. He comes with a specially balanced mix of weeds and flowers.

    On the side of the barrel it says

    “No idoling cavalcades of cars with their lights on for me.
    I am not going to let my nutrients and energy go to waste.
    I don’t want a deep wasteful hole like a piece of garbage.
    I am certainly not going to be cremated wasting precious energy and needlessly creating additional greenhouse gas.
    Remember me by the warmth of a useful flame!

    An engraved list of temporary barrel occupants runs down the side of the barrel.
    Don’t waste your last potential.
     
  16. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    You know, that NakedCapitalism article is talking about nitrogen fertilizer, which is made in a lab and it's a chemical called Ammonium Sulfate. Nature doesn't make ammonium sulfate, it's high in nitrates and nitrites and that's what causes the pollution.

    Urine, on the other hand, has ammonia in it, which is made up of nitrogen and hydrogen, and is not anything like the lab stuff above. It might be on the alkaline side, so if we already have alkaline water or alkaline soil, we might want to acidify it a bit before adding it to the soil. My soil is a bit acidic, so I have added it straight around the driplines of fruit trees and large shrubs.

    But the important thing about Ammonia in urine is the nitrogen dissolves in water, passes through the soil and chemically bonds to carbon, our organic matter on top of and in our soil by a process called ADsorption (as opposed to ABsorption). So adding it to mulch on top, or the composting pile is enough to make it stay put and does not contribute to greenhouse gasses. One of the major points of Permaculture is to use tons and tons of carbon so we are sequestering greenhouses gasses. Whatever small amounts of nitrates and nitrites in ammonia do not interfere with the soil bacteria and fungi like ammonium sulfate does. :)
     
  17. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    good one sweatpea,

    in our place for so many years now we can't remember, if it rots it goes to the garden [vege, meat scraps], that keeps our garbage can down to less than 1/2 full for this small bin they supply. most of the time newspaper (we don't buy any all freeby stuff) that appears on our footpath and from other gets used in the gardens as does most cardboard,especially when we build new gardens we use oodles of it, and when we sell and move new gardens will be build. we prune and drop for food tree areas [a good one for the climate changers to target as some of the nitrogen escapes into the atmosphere as we can't always afford mulch.

    so our large recycle bin never over 1/2 full.

    for more years than we can remember we have not flushed anything but incidental urine, and all used water gets used again.

    up in the bush we reycled our soild waste as well. and all tine cans got buried where future food trees would be planted.

    well equiped with 22.5k/l tank as well.

    len

    len
     
  18. Lumbuck Thornton

    Lumbuck Thornton Junior Member

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    Sweetpea,

    Thankyou for the clarification. The popularity of this thread suggests there are many people agreeing urine is too good to waste or cause waste and that all that is needed is clarification of the best way to use it. :)
     
  19. sindhooram

    sindhooram Junior Member

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    this thread is really strange to me now - putting pee on the garden is a green house gas??? what animal in nature goes and buries their pee underground (exept maybe burrowing animals).....normally animals I have seen just pee and go...so I assume it is part of nature - well also breathing emits more CO2 than we breath if you think about it but noone would say stop breathing....flying around in planes unecessarily, using the car to go to the supermarket round the block, etc.etc. seem like more relevant things to focus on than a bit of urine used in the garden as a natural fertilizer....and what about the saving you are making on going in your car and buying in plastic bags full of artificial fertilizers??
     
  20. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    yeh sindooram,

    when i first saw it i nearly came back on the track, imagine how many dogs alone pee outside, we are in oodles of problems, won't even mention bovines.

    len
     

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