Please let us explore 'spirituality' and this means being free to question

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by zvall, Jul 26, 2012.

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  1. Unmutual

    Unmutual Junior Member

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    Sort of, yes. Let's use aspirin for an example. The bark of the white willow(Salix alba) was the basis for aspirin. The active chemical in the bark is salacin, and asprin is the chemical salicylic acid. Chewing on willow bark would indeed relieve pain. The man made compound salicylic acid does too. But the bark of willow offers other benefits besides relieving you of your headache, it also has other properties such as antioxidant, fever reducing, antiseptic, and immune boosting properties. Also, if you were to opt to use willow bark, you can use a smaller dose to get the same results of pain relief. I couldn't find anything on willow bark vs. aspirin and the stomach issues normally associated with aspirin. I suspect(but am not sure) that willow bark would be gentler on the system too.

    Nature tends to do things better than man.


    I'll stop here then. I guess the title of the thread about being free to question mislead me.
     
  2. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Umutual as far as I am concerned you are very welcome in this thread and to question things. But isn't that what I am doing too? Or are you wanting to be able to make statements and not have people question them? I would expect this thread to have robust debate at times.

    Maybe think about it in this way. If someone started a thread about science and Pc and a new ager came along and started talking about how crystals grow plants and quantum physics proves this, wouldn't you consider that person ignorant about science? All I'm saying is that if you don't have an experience and theory of spirituality that is grounded in reality, then your views are going to come across like that.


    Willow is a good example. Science will tell us some but not all things about it, and traditional use will tell us some but not all things. They're complementary IMO.
     
  3. PinkPerm

    PinkPerm Junior Member

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    My practice of permaculture is interwoven with my spiritual journey with Jesus. Simply because the Gospel readings in NT are full of JC's parables, that he told to the impoverished peoples, his own countrymen/folk, who were under the horrid rule of the Roman empire at the time. He spoke of farming, and seeds, and ethics for being the boss, and hiring workers, and sickness and health in his story telling. He was very down to earth. He did not need special foods to heal people. It was his spiritual life that set him apart, to set others free, although they were oppressed by the power mongering Romans.

    We can seemingly relate in that way that we can be oppressed by the financial institutions of this day. And the currency of this time being money. Rather than bartering and sharing equipment, cooperating with others etc. For me, permaculturing is a 'tool' to enable me to dance a new dance. And I like this new dance. And for me, my dance partner is Jesus. A present and ever ready gardening partner and life giving friend. And don't we all expect LIFE from our gardens! So I tap into the strength to get on do things, heaven's wisdom to wait or change plans or designs etc, the delight I get when i see the small things that matter in the garden or look up in time to see the sun glimmering on something in a certain way that only lasts a moment etc.

    And simply put... my thanks goes to the Creator. For instance, for the little plot of land I have to call home, this side of heaven. And for all the lessons I learn from applying ethical principles, parallel to Jesus teachings in my heart, home and therefore lifestyle.

    That's how my spiritual journey and my permaculture lifestyle works for me.
     
  4. zvall

    zvall Junior Member

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    I don't think of Jesus as being earthy. I don't think there was an historical Jesus. But the mythical one wanted to get AWAY from earth to his 'father'. Unlike the pagan god~men who represented birth death and regeneration, the Jesus story is about wanting to go 'up' , and NOT regenerating here on earth again
     
  5. PinkPerm

    PinkPerm Junior Member

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    Hi zvall,
    That is one way of looking at Jesus of Nazareth.
    Yes, as I understand Jesus wanted to please His Father, so much that he obeyed the Father's request for his son to be sacrificed as a criminal, yet his son was sinless. And this then meant that eventually, after Jesus resurrected as the Christ (meaning, the annointed one of God) he then DID ascend to heaven from where he came before he was born as a baby boy to a village girl that we are told was a virgin, called Mary.
    BUT, as I recall, Jesus begged and wept and stressed out so deeply about dying the night before one of his disciples traded him for a bag of silver. He was pleading in the Garden of Gethsemane with his Father... how he did not want to 'drink of this cup' but he loved the Father so much that he also said 'but not my will, but your will be done'. The Father knew the bigger picture. That if he gave his only begotten son, as a sacrifice for the human race, then anyone anytime anywhere in any generation or tribe or language group etc could recieve the Grace of forgiveness of our own waywardness, or sins. Because Jesus the Father's son, paid the price of love and obedience to death on the Roman's cruel cross (the punishment for sinners of the day). So Jesus, as I understand, from what the New Testament tells me, that he the sinless one, took the place of a sinner and died as the punishment of the law would have it.
    So that..... we and all peoples can call on the name of Jesus, as Saviour from spiritual death, and we will know LIFE in the spirit and be able to tap into the realm that is beyond us. We become saved by the thread that He weaves around our hearts, that links us directly to know eternal life, in our human spirit.
    I think the Bible speaks of being born again in our spirit, maybe once in all the books of the Bible. But I think that sums up the regeneration factor that you raised zvall. That we, you me, any folk that acknowledge Jesus as the son of God, and Saviour. Or Lord of Life and Death really. Then we are saved from spiritual death. Oh, Jesus as Lord of death because he kicked lucifers butt, and rose back to life on the third day, then after forty days of hanging out with his disciples (so the Book of Acts says) he ascended to Heaven. Home with Papa God.
    WHY... so that the Holy Spirit could GRACE us on earth, and lead us to all truth, faith, hope and love. Jesus told his disciples in the Gospels, that the son of man (Jesus) needed to go, so that the Comforter could come and lead us into the truth.
    Jesus was God in a man's body. So very limited capacity to go and help people. But the same Spirit that was in the Son, can be in any one of us, to empower us to do just like Jesus did, if we let the holiness and purity of heaven fill our lives (progressively this is what the earnest follower of Christ seeks) and let miracles flow through us. Then miracles set others free to realise there is a Saviour, who wants to grace them with eternal life. Eternal life, is graced upon us. Not according to how good we are, or any standard that we achieve. Merely and solely as a gift to the humble hearted one that accepts this Jesus as Lord of their every day life, through and through.
    So yes, historical Jesus, but also ever living Saviour Jesus, whose Spirit can carry any one of us into eternal life with Him.
    So no, he did not want to leave this earth, as I mentioned zvall. In the Garden of Gethsemane as the Gospels teach us, he pleaded to not die. Or maybe not to leave his friends. Or not to die so brutally with nails in his hands and feet, left to drain in his own blood and water as it filled his lungs.
    Thats my understanding of the life and purpose of Jesus of Nazareth.
     
  6. zvall

    zvall Junior Member

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    I am not attracted to that myth. I am only speaking how I feel. If this is for you there you are, but I encourage people to question and challenge if need be.

    One book that really blew my mind and turned me onto taking the research of mythologies more seriously was titled The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross, by John Allegro. He claims there is no historical evidence for a Jesus of Nazareth, and that what the myth secretly means--hidden in the text, which was composed in a layered way, so that the surface is literal, and the inner layers are for the initiated, and contain wordplay, transliteration, the use of 'dead' languages such as Sumerian and so on, and point to the fact the 'Jesus' or the 'Chrestos' was a mind-altering mushroom the initiates eat. This makes sense to me, because Allegro and others reveal that the more ancient pagan mythologies also point to the eating of mind-altering vegetations, but different to Christianity they did not pretend their mythologies were historical.

    The LITERAL idea of a 'God' who is supposed to be 'all good and loving' demanding his only son be tortured and then crucified as a sacrifice for the sin of mankind is awful! I believe that this is really favoured by many Christians, especially the 'Passion' where Jesus is tortured, and that Mel Gibson's film The Passion of Christ' which even I couldn't stomach to watch, and I have watched Scorsese films etc--that it was the biggest box-office success with the Christians.

    It is of course all nonesense, and the REAL meaning is something I would love to describe from my perspective---from what I understand. First off there are two sides to the Chritstian story, the exoteric and the esoteric. The exoteric is the one you describe, and the esoteric is the one I have described, and which I want to further differentiate from the more earth-spiritual pagan one.
    The solar esoteric tale of Jesus is based on the idea of a sky god--a creator who is apart from 'his' creation, and in this mythology, reality is divided into opposing groups such as light and dark, good and bad, male and female, life and death, pure and impure, where one group is thought of as superior to the other ---such as male versus female, life versus death. hence it is patriarchal, and as Allegro shows--in the patriarchy sperm is considered superior, and for them the 'sacred mushroom' was the most potent for theri sky god's spermatozoa, and eating it would be interpreted as contacting their deity and becoming purified to as to ascend, and/or eventually physically resurrect in a transfigured body, in a 'beautified' earth.

    Now that myth differs from the lunar mythological understanding of the Goddess. because in this mythos nature is NOT fallen, we are NOT born in original sin, and do not need Jesus to save us.hence ALL the fruits of sacred earth, including the mind-altering fruits are for our benefit, and eating mind-altering fruits in this understanding is not to 'become pure' and escape fallen nature, but Celebration of nature, and its cycles of birth, death, and regeneration. For you cannot have life without death and vice verse, and understanding this in a deep ecstatic way is enlightenment.
     
  7. zvall

    zvall Junior Member

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    Like I said above---I see that spirituality should not mean you cannot use reason. I am aware that the Christian faith does not want you to question their belief. They want 'faith'!
    Well, no, I question, and if I find there is no historical evidence for a Jesus of nazareth, I want to talk about it reasonably. of course I am aware that some people may claim to meet 'Jesus' in a NDE, or on a psychedelic trip, etc---and I cannot say you vision is false, because they experienced it so it is real for them. But I can challenge them if they then tell me that because they experienced who they believe is 'Jesus' that I must also have faith. I would rather ask questions about how the imaginal realm, or what ever we want to call it can be influenced by our belief systems. This is important, because many of the bog religions have started from an individual claiming to have had visions and been told things, and many things told have caused terrible division in cultures throughout history. So we must both respect spirituality--which is a deeper part of our being but also question--not losing our reasoning capacity.
    if I have a vision/experience which communicates to me I should deeply care for the Web of Life that makes deep sense to my reason also.
     
  8. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

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    :think: Time to lay off the 'shrooms zvall.
     
  9. zvall

    zvall Junior Member

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    it is fairly easy to appear with a one line put-down. Another thing to explain exactly what you mean by that?
     
  10. PinkPerm

    PinkPerm Junior Member

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    Hi zvall,
    I trust you realise when I shared my views above, I am not setting out to critisise another, but to participate in the 'explore spirituality' as the thread is titiled. And it also included, yes, that we can question each viewpoint. No probs.

    In my opinion I don't need to defend Christianity, or Jesus as Son of God, etc. God is capable of doing that better than what I can in this forum. I can however not deny my personal spiritual journey which is centred on a Saviour who extended eternal life to me by grace alone. Jesus of Nazareth is the resurrected Christ - this I believe. Not because I have only read the Bible and been brain washed by preachings from the front pulpit. No that is not convincing enough for me. My journey is deep, and alive. So do give me some credit.

    Yes I agree entirely, that our mind can play tricks on us, be it from the pizza that made us have a bizarre dream or mushrooms as you spoke of. I have never done drugs, little wine intake rarely, and am trying to be organic in my food intake. So I am not looking for a buzz - although organic fairtrade milk chocolate is sweet to my lips, and possible heightens my sugar levels and gives me a delight until it all drops and brings me down again! Funny that.

    And yes, our mind needs to be nurtured and treated with respect. It can play tricks on us.The brain and mind and soul is highly fragile and needs as much support as we can give it, so that it works well for us all our days. That is why it is good to have friends or significant others around us that we can bounce ideas off, and give them permission at any time to let us know if we are going too far out of on a limb. And mutually we keep each other in check. That is one way at least.

    Is there anyone reading this that give pass on some of the ways they keep their mind in check? That would be great to explore the diversity of keeping our mind, eg focused and at rest, amidst a busy world our society is stormed with.

    Ever heard or read any of the mystics of old? A contempory author who speaks on ways of the heart and spiritual matters is Richard Rohr. He is a well read Fransican monk, and versed in a range of spiritual pathways that the world offers and their contemporary leaders. He has audio/CDs, books and does workshops internationally. His style is not everyones favourite. You can google him. I am intrigued with his interpretation of the nine personality type system The Enneagram. Of course he is not the only one who writes about this, but his Christian perspective was valuable. Oh and an author that you may like, happens to have written The Essential Enneagram, is David Daniels. He is a psychiatrist from Sanford (I think), and learning the Enneagram personality typing system changed his life, he introduced it to his wife and it changed her undertanding of life, and then it transformed their marriage, and then he introduced it to his colleagues in psychiatry. David Daniels now is an international speaker on the personality system and how to improve ourselves and our relationships. And Daniels marries the spiritual journey into our self improvement.

    You are right to question. And Richard Rohr does a lot of this. And why not?
    Yet rational (which you were eager to focus on) and faith (believing yet without seeing) maybe are not always opposing, yet are not always hand in glove either. When is it better for one more than the other if ever? etc.

    Thanks for the discussion zvall.
     
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