Please let us explore 'spirituality' and this means being free to question

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by zvall, Jul 26, 2012.

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  1. annette

    annette Junior Member

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    True Len. I think though when you do experience something out of the ordinary and you have a rational mind you do try to find something to explain it, to put your mind at rest. I gave up years ago trying and then this book fell in my lap so to speak. But am at the point of exceptance, not labelling anything and just doing the do (or trying to with a sore back). I also am fascinated by quantum physics and so it was a good read with all the experiments explained etc. Theory or not it is food for the brain.
     
  2. annette

    annette Junior Member

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    Yep I love it too. :)
     
  3. mischief

    mischief Senior Member

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    Here's another example of 'the Universe' at work

    A friend of mine is a practising medium and spiritual advisor/counsellor.
    She grew up in a spiritualist houshold, with her mother, auntie and grandmother all practising mediums at a time when this was just not mentioned for fear of retribution.
    Her viewpoints and mine do not always sit comfortably as I do not feel the need or urge to do as she does but we both grant each other the right to be what and how we are.

    She was asked to go to a small community by a mutual friend who does Reiki to give readings while she did her massagey thing- mainly to keep whoever turned up busy while she was busy.
    It was a raving success with quite afew men turning up and being very accepting of what went on.(apparently it isnt common for guys to turn up on the first group).

    This is a Very small tight knit community who all knew each other and basically everything about each other.
    The readings are normally done in private but as they were in a tiny cottage that wasnt practical so everybody heard everybody elses readings and saw everyones Reiki thingy being done too-tiny place.

    People are craving for some road that leads to a more spiritually aware existence.
    One thing that blew them away was they all knew that the person who organised the group had and was using magic mushrooms.
    My friend was 'told' that this person had these and that they were going to be their undoing and insisted til she 'fessed up and got her to understand that she needed to put them in the coal range because she not only didnt need them any more but that they were going to cause her grieve- they no longer exist.

    These two were paid by 'Koha' ( maori for gift, meaning whatever the person wanted to give).

    My friend always has a slow cooker burbling away over winter but afew days before it cracked for some reason.
    She didnt have the money to replace it and mourned her loss.
    ad didnt know what she was going to do to replace it.

    One woman had no money but brought along a slow cooker she no longer wanted or could use now and offered this as payment, which was more than gratefully recieved being exactly what my friend needed.

    Her comment on the subject was..."the universe works in mysterious ways'
    sound familiar?
     
  4. zvall

    zvall Junior Member

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    It is not to clear what you mean here, I have trouble understanding you, but I get the gist that magic mushrooms are being feared? I find this sad because they are a spiritual food. They can inspire us as to the interconnectivity of the Web of Life, so why is that to be feared? As a permaculturist you should be aware of all the diverse range of foods you can grow, and how some will have a different range of vitamins, and trace elements, and minerals etc, and roughage, and taste, from others, and which will emotionally effect you--often in ways you may not be aware of. For one good foods will make you feel healthy, vital, and full of energy. So we are knowing this, and as well as all that, many Indigenous peoples, especially the healers in their communities, know which plants, etc can help to heal us, from snake bites, from skin conditions, etc etc. YET these magical plants and fungi for some people have this reputation as being 'dangerous'----why? I am just asking you to explore this question because if you really are serious to it takes you on a fascinating journey of inquiry which should dispell any fear you may have towards mind-altering vegetations, and realize they are our trues friends and not our enemies if we love and respect them. Look what happens when we don't respect nature--we get monoculture and degradation......so.
     
  5. mischief

    mischief Senior Member

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    So you use drugs and feel you benefit from them.

    The point you missed from what I posted was- It was not my friend telling her she knew the girl had drugs, it was the girls guides telling my friend that the girl was using them and they knew that if she did not stop she was going to come to grief.

    I feel that you are confusing the physical requirements of the bodies need for fuel and assume that because you feel good when you take drugs that you need these things as fuel for your spiritual well being as well.

    I can see this is a situation that we are just not going to agree on.

    Using diversity in nature as a part of your argument makes me feel really sad.

    Your examples of indigenous peoples using herbs for correcting physical conditions is, to me a justification-something used to make what you do sound okay to do.
    Just about every culture uses herbs to correct physical conditions and have done so since forever.

    Indigenous cultures have and do use narcotics in some spiritual rites, short term and very occasionally.
    No culture uses or ever used drugs on a constant and regular basis to improve their connection with the Universe as seems to be encouraged in todays so called western society.
    Specific times for specific purposes, with specific training.
    These narcotics are dangerous and they knew that.

    I smoke tobbaco, not because of its historical connection but because I am stupid and addicted.
    The American Indians did not abuse this herb as I do because they knew that it hindered their physical survival-they knew it would cause the inability to keep running-lessened lung capacity.Cant run to catch your food cant run to escape dangerous situations, therefore not something you use all the time.

    One person told me that they smoked dak because the American Indians used this in their rites.
    This told me that that person actually had no idea of what they were talking about because it was tobacco not dak that was used in the situation they gave as an example.
    Marijuana is native to the Himalayan area and they Do Not have a culture of using this herb, infact quite the opposite.
    Hemp seeds are and have always been used as a seasoning in Japan, but they too do not use the plant in their religious/spiritual rites.

    From the the title of your thread, I assumed you were interested in spirituality as a whole but from your posts, this seems not to be the case, just what you see as the wonders of a drug induced trip.

    I'm not going to bother with this thread any more.
     
  6. zvall

    zvall Junior Member

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    We do not have to agree. I am hoping this thread is a place people can freely share their understandings of spirituality and life and its relationship with permaculture, and challenge others idea if they need to, which your doing to my ideas, and that is fine. if you want to leave that is your choise, but let everyone have the freedom to share their ideas.

    yes the body needs 'fuel' of course, and so does the soul. But for some reason natural vegetation which pleases more so the latter requirements are greatly feared by some, and prohibited by the State (just imagine--the powers that be making natural vegetation illegal...!). They are called the usual disparaging term 'drugs'. Actually if we wished, we could call all food drugs, because they also contain chemicals and effect our bodyminds, but when that term 'drugs' is used it is for fear-based reasons, because all the propaganda is about a 'war on drugs'. Totally ironic and sickening in a culture which pushes dangerous toxic LEGAL drugs onto little children!

    I don't see why it is said. Is it not so that diversity includes mind altering vegetation? I don't really understand why you are so het up about this. It is so that Indigenous peoples throughout recorded time have used sacramental vegetations as part of their spiritual and healing rituals. It is only our modern culture which has taken such a stance against ANY use of them, even waging war on them.



    Psychedelics are not 'narcotics':
    Sorry, you obviously do not know what your talking about. Many do use them on a regular ritual regular basis. You also jump to conclusion and without asking questions must presume I am 'on em' every day or every week, or every month. How do you know things unless you ask questions?

    I wonder how you can judge if you have one of the most dangerous habits--smoking?

    I smoked from being 10 for many many years, and also went onto smoke dope, but gave all up over several years ago and feel great :)

    That is because you cannot accept that some people see mind-altering plants and substances as sacred and spiritually inspiring. There is great fear about them. But I also accept people who do not choose to take them. But will defend the taking of them, and the vegetations there right to be growing in the wonderful Earth!
     
  7. greenman1

    greenman1 Junior Member

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    I am interested in shamanism too. i keep my beliefs away from my work. noone is going to work permaculturally or even look into agroforestryetc if they think it has something to do with religion or belief out side of science. i believe that science comes first, its something that noone can dispute or argue about in reality.
     
  8. Ludi

    Ludi Junior Member

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    I think this highlights how different people react to various plants and other substances. I like to think it's ok for us to be different and to recognize that not everyone's experience is the same.
     
  9. Ludi

    Ludi Junior Member

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    Sure they can. :) Science is "just a theory."
     
  10. greenman1

    greenman1 Junior Member

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    Wow. u really believe that. science is fact. thats the whole point.:bow:
     
  11. Ludi

    Ludi Junior Member

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    No, I don't believe that, but some folks do. :) But at the same time I don't think "science is fact." Science is a method of examining reality to learn about facts. Reality is fact. Science is a method of learning about reality.
     
  12. greenman1

    greenman1 Junior Member

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    I see. sorry. sarcasm doesnt come accross well on typed stuff, im new to this thread btw. did someone say its just a theory?
     
  13. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    That's really well put Ludi. And takes us out of the whole spirituality vs science thing very nicely. Lots of different ways to examine reality.
     
  14. Ludi

    Ludi Junior Member

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    That's ok. :) There's a popular notion in some circles that some findings of science which get a lot of press these days are "just a theory." And the folks who say "just a theory" don't understand what the word "theory" actually means in science.

    https://chemistry.about.com/od/chemistry101/a/lawtheory.htm

    Heliocentrism, it's just a theory! :)

    (Sorry about the thread drift)
     
  15. Ludi

    Ludi Junior Member

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    Thanks. :) The thing about science that makes it different from some other methods of examining reality is that it is somewhat less subjective. The scientific method attempts to remove some levels of subjectivity by demanding that evidence be presented to both the body of scientists and to the public at large. That is, science in its pure form (not industry) is open source. And there are various other rules of the scientific method which help to limit subjectivity, such the demand that results be replicable or observable by other people. Spirituality on the other hand is highly subjective, so it's difficult to have a spiritual body of knowledge that is accepted in the same way that basic concepts of science are accepted. Most scientists and most other folks accept heliocentrism, for instance, but it's less easy to get the same nearly-universal acceptance of some concepts of spirituality such as reincarnation.
     
  16. NGcomm

    NGcomm Junior Member

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    Hi Ludi. Glad someone pointed out the scientific approach and if more spiritual based people appreciated how the scientific method was used I think there would be less antagonism between the groups. There is a spanner I want to throw into your 'reality' argument though. Reality is only relative to the model you work with. As long as everybody is aware that the model they use to describe their 'reality' is simply a model/map and not actually the reality/terrain being described, then all good. But it is a rare human being who can appreciates the difference.

    Re your comment on reincarnation. Once again it is separating the map from the terrain it describes. E=MC2 is a perfect expression of reincarnation but most of us can't view this without requiring an 'I' to be associated within this 'rebirth'.
     
  17. Unmutual

    Unmutual Junior Member

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    Any other explanation for natural phenomena outside of science has no place in permaculture. It really is that simple. You can believe whatever you want. But if you inject your belief system into permaculture, then it ceases to be permaculture.
     
  18. zvall

    zvall Junior Member

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    ahaaa but science does not know what matter is nor what consciousness is. So if that is so they can hardly claim to be the full explanation of natural phenomena can they?
    The emergence of modern science with Galileo is interesting, because at that time the Church and orthodox religion was of course the all-pervasive power-structure, and so there had to be an agreement that the Church would deal with 'spiritual' matters and science with 'material' matters. So, in other words there is already the assumption of duality and division between 'matter' and 'spirit'. And thus feeling and 'objectivity'!
     
  19. Ludi

    Ludi Junior Member

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    That is your personal belief, it is not a fact.
     
  20. Unmutual

    Unmutual Junior Member

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    2500 years ago, ancient people thought that lightning, storms, rough seas and wind(among other things) were gods. This is how ancient man explained natural phenomena. When science was in its infancy, it couldn't explain why people got sick until the microscope and we discovered microorganisms. We didn't discover the hand of god making people die from plagues, but other living organisms. We now have a firm grasp on why it is a good idea to segregate people suffering from illnesses like the flu to stop the spread of disease. Before this scientific discovery, people would have said god was punishing them. Some people still think this way, unfortunately.

    We're not at the end of scientific discoveries either. We discover more each day. So just because science can't explain something today, doesn't mean it can't in 50 years. To me, and IMO, falling back on superstitious thinking when something can't be explained is just plain lazy thinking. We don't fully understand black holes, but that doesn't make them any more magical than the wind.
     
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