Please let us explore 'spirituality' and this means being free to question

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by zvall, Jul 26, 2012.

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  1. zvall

    zvall Junior Member

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    We are kind of there, and we have to now not romanticize about 'going back' but integrate scientific discovery with spiritual insights. Permaculture is a good example of this. It is true is it not that Indigenous peoples used/use 'polyculture', and yet it is also part of the world we are immersed in (thanks to the likes of Bill Mollison) the scientific discoveries which were unknown way back when. Having said that, in Jeremy Narby's book The Cosmic Serpent, that I am re-reading---he sees a correlation between the experiences inspired by Ayahuasca the Indigenous healers, and others, have --of serpents, and various visions, and 'communications with spirits' and with scientific discoveries of DNA (which resembles a twining double serpent!), and amazingly Crick claims it was the psychedelic LSD which helped him with the insight of how DNA forms:

    Now I am not exactly saying that thus the Indigenous peoples would be able to do the mathematical calculations, and other scientific experiments, but it is VERY important I feel to see this correlationship, and also remember that scientists dismiss this part of it--the visionary part too, and so what Narby is trying to achive is bring all of this to the table--as it were. NOT just dismiss 'spirit talk' 'hallucination talk' because they have been stung by 'superstitious nonesense' and/or have the image of old men in shacks in the jungle doing mumbo jumbo. To me real exploration is being interested in such correlation and what they may mean, and not jump to conclusions because of prejudice or fear of 'chaos'. I feel personally an urgency because of the ongoing assault on nature. We can maybe start with Rome, and follow this desrtification, and total disrespect for natural species and peoples who do not conform to this insane march to destruction. A big part OF this march is the suppression OF exploration of ideas.
     
  2. zvall

    zvall Junior Member

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    Hi PEBBLE, I tried to find original post to reply to but couldn't so paste it:

    I really love what you say here and wanted to reply. My first reply disappeared cause this place has habit of suddenly logging you out and then once told pooof all your text goes! next time I will save it on the notepad IF I remember which I probs won't LOL

    I want to share a pattern I see with the popular belief systems of this planet over many generations--an overview:

    OK, we have the Abrahamic religions who all stress a 'Book' of 'God's word' which MUST be obeyed and believed, and stresses that we are guilt-ridden as soon as we are born, and that nature is fallen, and our goal is to escape to 'heaven' or face eternal damnation in 'hell' and/or wait till the 'end times' when the saviour will return and un do evil nature and make it pure again, and get rid of death etc etc etc

    In the 1960s when youth discovered psychedelics, they unsurprisingly did not want to engage with any of that and so many turned to the East, and its beliefs and gurus, etc. But on closer look that is much of the same, because in those beliefs we have the idea pushed that nature is 'maya' an illusionary seductive trap, and that the heroic thing to do is to meditate so as to achieve liberation and 'ESCAPE' from 'the wheel of birth and death'. So yet agin we are bing jmade to feel --like you say--we are somehow wrong, and our bodies are wrong, and nature is wrong. So it seems to me the hippies who went running to the East went out of the frying pan into the fire!

    I have also been interested in the ancient Mystery schools and there also you find this theme of seeing the body and nature as traps and tombs preventing the 'divine spark' from ascending to its spiritual home beyond the stars.

    So bottom line is I am seeing this THEME or PATTERn shared by all these belief of the desire to escape what is being made to fear, our bodies, our natures, and nature in general. And so I greatly question all of that.

    Also the idea of 'reincarnation'. I am aware that the Eastern version has created a very divided society--the caste system--which suits an elite who wants to keep its 'slaves' believing they are 'workin out their karma'. But I rather see the deeper meaning--which these mindsets coopted for their own oppressive purposes--as being this: life and death are not actually independent, but are first off words/terms which the 'thinking mind cut off from itself' places in conceptual catergories, and has one side superior to the other side which becomes inferior, and is believed can be gotten rid of. Whereas in reality they are never separated but are a dynamic process. Feel me?
     
  3. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Not sure if I completely followed the last paragraph, but am with you on most of your post. Re the last bit, I can see the pattern of denial of death all around. Is that what you mean?

    The other, related, theme of fear of earth can also be viewed as patriarchal (and perhaps masculinist). Women fare badly in cultures that have spiritualities based on escaping the body/earth, and I think men are more naturally attracted to 'higher' philosophies when they are freed from the mundane by civilisation, whereas women are always tied to the earth through our bodies and childbearing.

    In this sense reductionist science is the brother of the judeo/christian religions and it's no coincidence that it arose out of societies gearing up for the most nature-hating period of human history. This doesn't mean that (reductionist) science is bad, just that we'd be better off with some humility in that direction. Or as you say, truly questioning minds.
     
  4. Benjy136

    Benjy136 Junior Member

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    I don't find this amusing
    is this all an illusion
    or am I down there losing my mind

    am I still in the back seat
    of a car on a back street
    in a body I'm leaving behind

    Am I still back there dying
    Is that her I hear crying
    yet it seems that it's so far away

    Its beginning to rain now
    and I don't feel the pain now
    as I keep getting farther away

    It was just a sharp pain
    then I felt it again
    Then I lost all feeling of time

    I finally know
    That the body below
    so cold....and so limp....was mine


    Fri. Aug 3, 2012......Ben Gabus
     
  5. Benjy136

    Benjy136 Junior Member

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    Its clear now I know
    that the body below
    so cold,....so limp....was mine

    change to ending
     
  6. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    G'day Pebble

    I think no such thing. By all means, outside of the 72-hour PDC, people should be free to teach whatever they desire. As long as they can separate the two, I have no problem with it. However, I do suspect that some people, such as Starhawk, might find that a little difficult to achieve:

    Welcome! I'm Starhawk, author of many works celebrating the Goddess movement and Earth-based, feminist spirituality. I’m a peace, environmental, and global justice activist and trainer, a permaculture designer and teacher, a Pagan and Witch. To see how it all weaves together, follow the many strands of my web...

    While the Permaculture Design Course (PDC) is undoubtedly an evolving entity, is it at a point where it is willing to embrace the goddess within us all? Probably not. Will it ever be? Probably not. However, as Holmgren says (p. xxi):

    The debate about the content of Permaculture design courses has become more intense in recent years. Bill Mollison and others have asserted that a failure to adhere to the curriculum, the inclusion of religious beliefs outside the scope of "design science", and a lack of attention to principles and theory is diluting and devaluing some permaculture education. Although I might agree with some of these claims about some courses, I have always found the perception of dilution has to be balanced by the value of diversity even when, like weeds, it comes in forms we don't particularly like.

    So, after having re-read Holmgren, I am at least prepared to purchase and read one of Starhawk's books that I think will be useful to my practice before I pass any further comment on her particular brand of PDC teleology. Who knows? By sitting down, rolling up a spliff, and reading the book, I might even awaken the goddess within me.

    Night Pebbs, Markos
     
  7. zvall

    zvall Junior Member

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    I don't think I do re-reading it, so I will paste it here, and explain what it means hopefully better:

    I distrust the Eastern version of reincarnation which they claim is some kind of 'mechanical' in-built universal system of bringing justice to our actions. So this would imply someone born poor, and/or a slave to a rich man is 'working out their karma' as the universe demands it, as is the rich man. So I see with that version great corruption, and it would suit an elite who promoted it, because people oppressed would think the oppression is their karma, and would not challenge it.
    But I believe there is a deeper meaning which has been co opted my manipulators who write myths which--in this case--are a form of mind-manipulating propaganda, and the deeper mean is that there is a natural process of life, death and regeneration. And if we knew this deeply, we would realize that how we treat the natural world, other species and the rest of the human communities is how we are treating ourselves, because we are all part of this natural process. is this clearer?



    I completely agree with you though I wouldn't say 'tied to the earth' as though there is an alternative. The patriarchal stories try and make us feel bad about ourselves, and about nature so we are not contented and seek escape away from what has been said to be bad. it is divide and control----to divide us even against our own natures.

    It's bad when it turns into a religion itself, called scientism, and proclaims only it knows reality, and any other exploration of reality is delusional and/or pathological. It is silly to reject science, but rather the metaphysical philosophy which limits it and then its use for oppressing us. We have to in other words both question spirituality and science.
     
  8. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

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    So, are we talking about spirituality or spiritual philosophy?

    Personally, I think they are two different things. At least, that is my personal philosophy ;)

    I've been thinking about it and I suspect that permaculture could fairly be considered a spiritual philosophy in itself. It makes some significant assumptions based on scientific view of the universe. It is a philosophy based on secularism. Even if it claims to be a 'design science', it certainly relies on a certain world [and universal] view.

    It seems to me that the edge of this discussion is at the interface of the permaculture philosophy and the myriad other spiritual philosophies that practitioners adhere to. If the aim of permaculture as a movement is to become mainstream and broadly adopted then it needs to be available to everyone.

    Whilst I've said previously that I think there is no place for spirituality in PDC's, it would be more accurate to say that I am mostly ambivalent about it but I suspect, at this particular time in it's history it would be better for the overall uptake of Permaculture if PDC's were kept free of other spiritual philosophies.

    I also feel that spiritual philosophies can both accelerate and retard our spiritual development.

    At the moment permaculture fits fair and square within my spiritual philosophies, but I'm not discounting the fact that I could be completely wrong.
     
  9. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Just so I'm clear, are you meaning that the 72 hours has to sit within the three weeks as a completely separate entity? Do you think this should be true for other longer course that don't included spirituality?

    My personal view is that the issue is the integrity of the teachers and people who run any particular course. I have no problem with Starhawk weaving the 72 hours curriculum into her other work, as long as it is clear what she is doing, and the 72 hour content is obvious (eg by a comprehensive course outline). However I concede that because I haven't done a PDC (yet) there may be dynamics and issues I am missing here.




    That's where I sit: balancing protection with diversity.

    I can certainly see the potential for some teachers/organisers running courses with other content where the 72 hours gets diluted. Or worse, contaminated or where the integrity of the training is undermined. I don't know the curriculum well enough to give an example, but will try and look something up. However I still think the issue here is not inclusion/exclusion of spirituality, it's the integrity of the teachers. Wanting to ban spirituality from permaculture is throwing the baby out with the bath water.

    The main problem for me with the approach that the PRI has taken is that it's not actually clear what the problem is. We don't know if Starhawk, or anyone, is damaging Pc by how they teach. Until people are able and willing to front up with specific examples, there is no way to judge.



    I haven't read any of her recent works, but that one certainly looks good and I'd like to read it too at some point. Would love to know how you find it.
     
  10. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    G'day Pebbs

    I guess it all comes down to one being able and willing to qualify one's statements throughout the duration of the PDC.

    Examples:

    "OK, now we are going to talk about faeries. This topic is not part of the 'scientific foundation for permaculture design principles', as discussed by Holmgren (2002, p. xxv), however as I am a faerie, I think it is only natural that I should wish to share my personal experiences with you..."

    or

    "OK, now we are going to talk about soil science. I am a certified professional soil scientist, therefore I think it is only natural that I should wish to share my professional experiences with you..."

    Can you imagine how difficult that would be, to have to qualify each and every individual position statement throughout the entire delivery of a PDC? I know I struggle in having to do it during a 50-min lecture.

    True. However, watch this video (as an example), and judge for yourself:

    [video=youtube;_ZHDCT8FMJU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZHDCT8FMJU[/video]

    No worries. After I do get around to reading it, I'll post a brief review here.

    Cheerio, Markos
     
  11. zvall

    zvall Junior Member

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    So am I talking spirituality or spiritual philosophy, and what if someone gives a Pdc lecture and says 'I am a faerie'...? LOL
    Yes I admit this is complex. One of my very favorite and most important books which exposes a lot of the roots of much New Age nonesense, including places like Findhorn, etc is this book --which is yet deeply spiritual: Return of the Dark/Light Mother or New Age Armageddon? Towards a Feminist Vision of the Future, by Monica Sjoo

    Mainstream official science proclaims: "THERE IS NO 'SPIRIT'---THERE IS ONLY MATTER!!"

    Yet there are anomalies that science cannot currently explain

    And we very much do have people who push all kinds of stuff it is impossible to either refute of prove.

    So I admit it IS complex. And this is why I encourage questioning. because if I attended a talk and someone claimed to be a faerie, I would ask questions.

    As I have shared here, I personally have had one of the most powerful life-changing experiences where I met spirits which could also be called faeries. Can a scientist test me to see if I am telling the truth? Not really---could take a lie detector test I spose.

    Or say someone has seen a UFO, and/or been in contact with its occupants? How do we go about exploring such claims as these. OR do we see--it is all nonesense and just support science and not ask IT questions?

    How do we look at this situation in a permaculture context? You people here are far more experienced with permaculture than I am, but I know some things---like not seeing weeds as problems, and seeing problems as solutions:

    I would like to ask people here about every principle, but will for now just take the latter:

    Work with nature rather than against

    That to me must include our natures too. IE, yes there is Nature--'out there'. Science actually doesn't know what 'out there' really is meaning--how we perceive and so on. By that I am in no way implying there isn't an 'out there' though: Jeremy Narby - Biospheric TV
    So to work with our nature is to ask questions and be interested in, for example, why in this 'age of science' are people who suffer in various ways, or seen to be 'different' are persecuted by the State and coerced to take psychiatric suppressant medication. Surely that is not working with nature is it?

    But do you get me? I am seeing correlation between how we treat the land and waters, the Biosphere, and how we treat others. To me this is BOTH a practical and spiritual question.







     
  12. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Marko, that dowsing video is a great example.


    My problem (and I have a few with what she is saying) is not that she is mixing Pc and dowsing. It's that the new age lacks any kind of coherent critical self examination or development of theory and practice. It largely comes down to the individual practitioner but otherwise it's very chaotic, a free for all. I know people who dowse who I trust, I know others who are full of shit, and others in between. Rather than excluding all dowsing from Pc practice, I would prefer to see best practice developed. That won't happen as long as the new agers are left to themselves. But the new agers aren't going to go away, and they seem to be increasing in influence.

    So yes, I feel uncomfortable with what she is doing, but most likely for different reasons than you.

    Other than that it comes down to whether one 'believes' in dowsing. I'm thinking of another example though. There is a farmer in NZ who sells a system based on biodynamics. He's had alot of farmers take up his work, who were very happy with the results. The authorities tried to shut him down, using the commerce commission, because he made claims they said were impossible within science's understanding about the physical world. Not sure what happened in the end, but this man was doing good work in terms of changing farming practices in NZ to something more sane and sustainable. There is no way that 'science' (misused IMO in this situation) should have triumphed, nor been used as the be all and end all of judging reality. Does it matter whether this farmer's system is explainable with science if he and others are getting good results?

    Re the dowsing video, I do agree that what she says in that video shouldn't be part of a PDC. Beyond that, eg if she taught a 3 week course that included the 72 hours, I just think it's far too late for anyone to start dictating what happens with Pc now. The best thing that could happen is for teacher registration systems to be set up that maintain the integrity of the 72 hours, but I'm not holding my breath on that one too much either. Besides what is the PRI, or whoever, going to do when one of their approved teachers teaches Pc alongside things they disapprove of?

    I take your point about the pragmatics of teaching.

    I also have to wonder, what is going to happen when agribusiness co-opts permaculture? When someone teaches a PDC and says yes it's fine to use roundup when you have to.
     
  13. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    pebble,

    what exactly is wrong using a weedicide like glyphoste to control a bad patch of say nut grass that is not involved with a food growing area, and is used sparingly by that i mean cut some of the top off each plant and dob on neat glypho with a brush, or go around a property with hand held atomiser and glypho mix and apply spray direct on to the growing tips of grounsel to kill it? some specific chem sue all apart of integrated pest management, eyes not good enough to detect bug eggs or larva on brassicas, not so bad with cabbages but broccoli and caulies the grub gets right up inside the florettes and ruins food we need to eat. we use natural pyrethrum in those case, but as yet the corrupt profit making sciences have no treatment or control for the tropical fruit fly, so we net our tomatos and don't grow soft fruits, also got bats and king parrots at least to dissuade.

    when you come up with something sustainable and affordable for us please say so hey.

    len
     
  14. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Senior Member

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    Both groundsel and nut grass have developed resistance to Monsanto's secretions so its not really a long term sustainable solution to keep buying it and using it without getting into its other downsides.
     
  15. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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  16. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    grasshopper,

    if it didn't work in our applications we would not use it

    simple

    len
     
  17. annette

    annette Junior Member

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    Science is great but it doesn't explain everything. It has theories. The one I am most interested in is the theory of the holographic universe. It explains perfectly how paranormal experiences are actually quite normal. Here is what it is about. This is from the holographic universe by Michael Talbot.

    "Despite its apparent materiality, the universe is actually a kind of 3-D projection and is ultimately no more real than a hologram. This astonishing idea was pioneered by two of the world's most eminent thinkers, physicist David Bohm, a former protege of Einstein, and the quantum physicist Karl Pribram. The holographic theory of the world encompasses not only reality as we know it, including hitherto unexplained phenomena, but is capable of explaining such occurrences as telepathy, paranormal and out of body experiences, sychronicity, 'lucid' dreaming and even mystical and religious traditions such as cosmic unity and miraculous healings.

    He explains the theory behind the holograph and how it provides a model for aspects of brain function and for whole areas of quantum physics. Illustrating the paranomic way in which the holographic model makes sense of the entire range of mystical, spiritual and pyschic experiences, Talbot pushes the barriers to explore the implications for other universes beyond our own."

    It's a great book.
     
  18. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    plenty of theories out there annette,

    you are talking about another theories for the main could be seen as a product of an over active otherwise idol mind.

    but no matter at the end of the day it is still theory not fact, still conjecture and speculation, like following the GG's which horse will one bet on, all conjecture.

    len
     
  19. mischief

    mischief Senior Member

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    I just spent a really interesting day at work, actually wound up spending alot of it talking with my boss- "Roosters' dad".
    For those who dont have a clue what Im talking about, this is the person I gave my first rooster to when it started to crow very loudly.
    He's a qualified engineer and works in the farming heavy equipment industry-I clean said things for him on an on call basis.

    So here is a successful businessman, owns his own home on 10 acres, well thought of in the community, a mans' man- actually after watching Brokeback mountain, Im not too sure thats such an acceptable label anymore, but anyway, not a 'airy fairy/flake' of any sort.....
    Talking to me about spiritualty and the book he is currently readin on the subject.
    I dont know what I said originally to set him off( about 18 months ago), but he started asking questions on this subject back then just out of the blue so I must have let him know the subject would be okay some how.
    He expresses amazement at just how many people are accepting or practising spiritual awareness and developement-not too sure how to express this activity or even if it has a specific name.
    These people are from all walks of life and from he was saying, had all different viewpoints but all heading in a similar direction that he feels he is going.
    He does puzzle over why suddenly they are starting to just start talking to him about spirituality, the power of thought, of the Universe as an entity ( I think this has become an accepted alternative to using 'God' due to historic connotations) and the wonders they see and help create within this concept.

    One thing that he said which I thought was really interesting was on the farmers' connecting with their land, in particular, one who was experimenting with an organic foliar fertilizer and water from a clean spring on the farm.
    This person noted that the effect was cancelled when handled with a negative attitude.
    Apparently when handled with a 'positive spiritual' attitude the effects were instanteous and visually very obvious.

    Not all the people he has been talking to were farmers either or their wives and kids.

    One thing he himself has been doing is going to farm sales and buying the animals that are not thrifty, taking them home and getting them back into excellent condition using no drenches or chemical supplements and has been amazed at his results.

    for those who farm, he noted that when he stopped using silage, the health of his animals improved and last year did not put up hay but left it standing in the fields to be stripped grazed.
    These particular fields have a wild range of plants that turned up and the pasture changed by itself from modern grasses to what he called old style pasturage with herbs and broad leaf plants moving in.

    There was a thread earlier on that touched on the interconnectivity of all things and one of his recent realizations, was that everything is somehow connected.

    When he has finished reading his book, we are going to swop- he wants to read my book the complete herbal handbook for farm and stable, to see what he can sow or plant to increase the effectiveness of his new found method and I want to learn about things I obviously have missed on the spiritual side.

    While this might be going alittle off subject,its not really.
    Farming, farmers, organic methods, working with nature, working on self nature, acceptance of the obvious,the interconnectivity of all forms...

    I just love it.
     
  20. mischief

    mischief Senior Member

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    Interesting, one other thing that kept coming up was the concept of an awareness of personal responsibility which made me think of the buddhist teachings of right thought, right action etc...
     
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