Please let us explore 'spirituality' and this means being free to question

This is what i meant.... This item in p.r.i board..

Its seams that for some,:bow: who feel alienated by "spiritual" practises are simuler to those alienated by the non acceptance of Spiritual...

The fact that we are split in acceptance, is a split that can widen, just by adverse publicity....... Why should the "normal people be right all the time" lololol

Im no raving spiritulist.But im entitled to my opinion, weather your right or wrong. I was a Sceptic for mosta my life.... But Its not top of my lifes thoughts.... an apple allways tastes better in my mouth,then in my mind,even though my mouth can water at the thought of an apple in my mouth...

Can we agree to "respect everyones oppinions and beliefs"........ Lets not split ourselves apart right now...

Lets instruct our teachers, to leave the hocus pocus etc etc alone, We can still discuss spirituality, but maybe on a seperate, one on one basis,without it being compulsory.....

Lets not have "THIS and Them" mentality please for alls sake.... Cos your gunna look stoopid if it is true lolololol...


Tezza:y::y:

 

Tezza;

I can see that your mind and spirit, if you will, has become more,I think the word is understanding, over the years. It is difficult to explain to one who has been taught, all their lives, that a certain color is blue, that it is pink, when in actuality it is white lol

Ben

 

Thanks for the link pebble as the thread has given me much more respect for Pc after reading this piece from Bill "Thus, permaculture is not biodynamics, nor does it deal in fairies, devas, elves, after-life, apparitions or phenomena not verifiable by every person from their own experience, or making their own experiments. We permaculture teachers seek to empower any person by practical model-making and applied work, or data based on verifiable investigations."

Spirituality has seven billion faces and each face is only relevant to the person who wears a particular face. And if the person wants to prove that their model is verifiable through investigation then, as long as Pc complies with Geoff Lawton's comment "Permaculture is evolution in action by our design skills", it would be included in future Pc frameworks. Take for example electricity, we can't see it but through the postulation of theories investigations are conducted and it has been shown to be a repeatable phenomena. Infinitely more so than bio-dynamics, fairies or divas.

As previously stated I have been a practicing Buddhist for nearly 40 years so I am not immune to wearing my own particular face on spirituality. But I am also a rationalist (not a reductionist) as I have never seen that simply believing something makes it so without also ignoring all views that go against that believe.

And this is my point to Tezza and others on both sides of the discussion. Believe whatever you want, just don't expect it to be agreed to by others without repeatable objective results. If the belief can not do that, and you are okay with that, then others should be okay with you believing it, as long as it does no harm to anyone, or thing, other than yourself.

 

Yes that's what I meant? I know the experience was not like a usual dream, and was VERY real. If I was to choose a mythology tthat could explain it--it would be Celtic mythology, and they apparently got their mythology from The Tuatha de Danaan (the Children of the Goddess Danu). They believed that roundabout were other dimensions that are always here, but in order to see and experience them it is our perception that must change. But I also think that ordinarily many of us are dulled to the wonder of nature, and I think that that is sacred. Ie., I do not think it wise to make a religion of an 'invisible world' but that the real magic is to sense the wonder in the natural world, and if one has other deep experiences like I did that that is continuuous but not superior to the deeper realms. Reality is depthless. For example how can you measure feeling?

 

I just typed a real long detailed reply, posted it and it disappeared.

 

Thank you for the reply zvall. What you say about the experience of nature and reality is very much my own point of view.

 

AND sense of humour is also very much part of my idea of spirituality too, and you got planty of it it seems LOL.
This is why I brought this subject up, because when I tried at the UK permaculture forums it was deemed in a way not to be discussed--not on the agenda, etc, and I notice that the thread I tried to start there is dead which I find sad

I feel that the very action of questioning (lol sorry about that, but I thought I'd emphasis it) is connected with spirit, if we include spirit to mean feelings, emotions, images, visions, being allowed to breathe, flow, have expression.

I can't remember, but did I mention this great book I have read called Trials of the Visionary Mind
by John Weir Perry, and is about the real story of Perry providing an alternative space, called Diabasis, for people with first episode "schizophrenia". The understanding of all this, I feel, is deeply connected with the question of spirituality. Anyhow, he says how people undergoing powerful spontaneous visionary states experience "mythical" images and experiences, and he connects this dynamic with "spirit" and how it must be allowed to flow, and be supported with love and understanding and NOT the mono-culture of pharmaceutical medicated suppression, and fear 9for example, mainstream psychiatrists will not want to encourage people with "schizophrenia" to share with them about their experiences, because they see this as increasing their "pathological" state)--which is what this mechanistic culture does, and does real serious harm to people doing so. The drugs harm the body and soul, and the 'treatment' people receive is without any respect or love which causes further trauma.

So this is why I connect what that mindset is doing to the land, and waters---fucking them up--to what it is doing to our body and spirit, and that people who are exploring permaculture could greatly help support ways of encouraging deeper more intelligent understanding of what spirit may mean precisely because of their intelligent working with nature. To do this involves questioning. It is both exploring spirituality but not losing ones reasoning capacities, which is how Permaculture is done? IE you can see that working with nature is more intelligent than monoculture, which in itself is spiritual insight wouldn't you agree?

 

NG, the electricity one is a very useful example for this conversation. See, it's not the fact that electricity can be studied via the scientific method that makes it useful, it's the fact that humans can interact with it and make use of it. In the same way they can with biodynamics. If some people are unable to make practical use of biodynamics, then it may be that they simply lack the theoretical framework and the tools to make use of the practice. i.e. the people I know who use biodynamics do so because it works. Belief follows that.

I think you are conflating spirituality with faith. Not all spirituality is faith based. Some people's spirituality is experience based.

Rationality is a belief system, just like all the others ;-) There are significant problems with the idea that science is the sole preserve of valid knowledge generation, or that knowledge and experience is only useful if it comes with repeatable objective results. Many people practice useful ways of generating knowledge outside that framework eg someone making biodynamic compost over 30 years and using that compost to grow food, and kept records, has in fact produced a set of data that is useful. If western science can't make sense of why it works, that points to a limitation of science, not biodynamics. The same person could run a non-biodynamic compost/garden alongside, control for the variables etc and produce some knowledge using the scientific method, but honestly why would they bother when biodynamics works for them?

The horse bolted a long time ago in terms of controlling Pc. Not too many people disagree with keeping the PDC relatively 'pure', but there is no way that anyone can stop people from teaching PDCs within the context of other disciplines. There is certainly no reason to be against people practicing Pc alongside their spirituality, or discussing it, which I think is what this thread was about.

 

this would have to be one of the most useful and succinct things I have seen said in this debate anywhere. That one can explore spirituality and maintain one's reasoning capacities is self evident to me. The argument that spirituality = faith = lack of reason is false argument, and we should be naming it as such.

 

Argh...so I've been following this thread and have attempted a few posts, but every time I start typing it comes out inflammatory or confrontational. I seem to have lost my tact somewhere.

 

I think to a large (or possibly entire) extent human experience is subjective. People have an experience and place special meaning upon it, spiritual or religious importance. Scientific experience is subjective too, of course. The significance of the scientific method is that experiences can be replicated without needing to believe in them. Apparently many spiritual or mystical experiences can also be replicated by people who do not believe in the mysticism surrounding the practice. This goes back to the learning of techniques such as meditation, ingesting magical plants, etc. And some of us without believing may also choose to put spiritual meaning on a spontaneous subjective experience, as zvall mentioned.

 

There's nothing wrong with expressing an opinion that differs from other's opinions. Heaven help us if we loose our freedom of speech and ability to explore different viewpoints about particular issues. It can be done in a way that separates opinion from the person in such a way as it is not perceived as a personal attack. If we don't believe or agree with someone's view we can either ignore it or state an opposing view without any judgemental accusations about anyone's integrity or belief system. That's how we broaden our perspectives on things. If it is done this way and someone takes offence, then maybe it is something inside them that needs examining.

 

People's spirituality is as diverse as the places they live in. Their interpretation of permaculture in relation to their individual circumstances will be necessarily different. I think this goes for their interpretation of spirituality too.

For me spirituality is all about the spirit within - the unique self. And it all comes down to exploring, understanding and acting according to this self - "know thy self". It is about how the inner we interacts with the outer universe.

I believe science will never be able to show us what spirit is or what it looks like, however as with anything it can be a useful tool/experience that guides us towards a better understanding of it/of who I am. I think religion is exactly the same. Spirituality is an individual experience that may or may not be enhanced by these two and other dogmas ( ).

I also think spirituality is separate to specific experiences, it is separate to the ability to read auras, or split the atom. It has little more to do with balancing chakras or holy communion than it does with stacking supermarket shelves. All of these experiences can be spiritually significant, or none of them. One of my most enlightening spiritual experiences came when I was dusting a rack of fridge magnets. It is about our response-ability, our intention and about how we bring our inner selves to each experience.

As we listen to our inner wisdom we get closer to nirvana, as we ignore it we move further away.

These thoughts of mine are what give so much meaning to me in the words of Gandhi and Einstein.

Be the change that you wish to see in the world

and

You cannot solve a problem from the same level of consciousness that created it

You [read me] have to change your mind, and I don't mean that to say that you have to go out as opposed to staying home. You have to literally change your mind, the way it works, the way it sees things, if you want the world to change. Similarly you have to ACT differently to how you do now. If you don't change your own personal behaviour then you have no right to ask the universe or the others who populate it to change.

This is why spirituality and permaculture are so intertwined for me. They are inseparable. And this is also why I believe spirituality should be left out of any permaculture training

 

"And this is also why I believe spirituality should be left out of any permaculture training"

What does that mean?

 

I was thinking I wouldn't have to explain that

It mostly means that I believe, you can't force spirituality and trying to do so may adversely effect a persons experience of the permaculture training. The principles and practices of permaculture can however be useful experiences for people regardless of where they are in their spiritual lives. I also believe that the permaculture training may be more widely useful and accessible as a spiritual experience for the participants if it is not designed to be a spiritual experience.

Having said all of that, I have no difficulty with people running a spiritual course that structures itself around the principles and practices of permaculture. But that is an entirely different thing. You could also run a course on "Living a life of common sense" and base it on permaculture principles and practices. The list goes on. But a course on permaculture needs to be a course based on permaculture principles and practices, not spirituality, religion or home cooking.

Clear as mud?

 

mmMMMMmmhhh, mud.

Let's get a bit more specific... Marko gave this example once, of what shouldn't happen (and I disagreed). It's a PDC run by Starhawk, an internationally recognised activist, amongst other things.

https://www.earthactivisttraining.org/

Trainer bios https://www.earthactivisttraining.org/teachers.html

More detail of an upcoming PDC here https://ourecovillage.org/events/2012-earth-activist-training/

Someone will have to explain to me how someone reading those pages and enrolling would be put off by the spiritual aspects once they were on the course. ie the PDC is designed for a specific community that wants to do a PDC in that context and anyone not wanting that wouldn't enroll. It's likely that at least some of the people that do Starhawk's PDC wouldn't do one by say the Lawtons, because they want to be met culturally during the PDC experience. I don't believe that every PDC should be spiritually or culturally vanilla. I think that making them so limits Pc and is counter to the aims of Pc.

The only potential problem I can see with Starhawk's PDC is how they fit ritual and nature awareness into the two weeks with compromising the core 72 hour curriculum. But as PDCs in general don't appear to be set in stone either, I personally think it's unlikely to be a big concern.


"additional focus on social permaculture, organizing tools, and spirit."

I'm guessing that there's not a problem with the first two ;-)

 

G'day Pebble, and all other interested parties of the permaculture-meets-metaphysical persuasion

Actually, if my memory serves me correctly, I think I was more perturbed with the promotion of 'magic' as an integral part of a PDC. The following is an excerpt from the link that Pebble has kindly provided, and it asserts my case in point:

...two-week permaculture design certificate course with a focus on organizing and activism, and a grounding in earth based spirituality. Learn how to heal soil and cleanse water, how to design human systems that mimic natural systems, using a minimum of energy and resources and creating real abundance and social justice. Explore the strategies and organizing tools we need to make our visions real, and the daily practice, magic and rituals that can sustain our spirits...

Personally, I'm of the opinion that the metaphysical does have a place in the teaching of a PDC, but only in the context of acknowledging that it as an entity which may form a part (or indeed, all) of one's personal permaculture practice.

Holmgren holds a similar opinion, I suspect, and for this reason sees fit to rightfully include Health & Spiritual Wellbeing as one of the seven petals on the Permaculture Flower.

Cheerio, Markos

 

I'm confused Marko. Here's your post from the other thread

https://forums.permaculture.org.au/...lism-(aka-the-Metaphysical)&p=82405#post82405

What does that mean (if nothing that's not scientifically verifiable should be allowed)?


Do you understand what Starhawk means by magic? Do you think that is not metaphysics? I'm not clear what you meant.

 

G'day Pebble

In relation to the first point, a more nuanced position might read:

...there is no place for *the teaching of* the scientifically unverifiable in the PDC...

In relation to the second, I trust it makes more sense now?

I have no idea what Starhawk means. The Macquarie Dictionary definition of magic is not much help: 'the art of producing effects claimed to be beyond the natural human power'. What do you think Starhawk means?

Perhaps it's like Freddie's song:

[video=youtube;yXN80g2xzZk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXN80g2xzZk[/video]

Cheerio, Markos

 

"I trust it makes more sense now?"

Not quite yet Marko


"...there is no place for *the teaching of* the scientifically unverifiable in the PDC..."

If someone ran a three week course, that included all of the 72 hour PDC, you think there is no place in the rest of the course for metaphysics or spirituality?


From what I remember Starhawk's definition of magic is 'changing consciousness at will'. I think judging her work on the basis of one word is akin to someone seeing the word 'permaculture' and thinking bloody hippies.