HI, I am glad that there is a section of these forums which encourages discussion about 'spirituality' and/or 'spirits' because I think this is deeply important, especially so in the Permaculture community. I am from the UK, and recently inquired at the UK permaculture forums how come there was no section about spiritualty and was very surprised in the responses I received, and saddened too. For example (my username is sheeza there btw) https://www.permacultureforum.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=1645&p=7046#p7046 IF true, that Bill Mollison was angry the hippies 'coopted' "what was meant to be a pragmatic methodology', is there implied in that that ONLY Bill in the history of human kind discoverd the intelligence of working with nature, and permaculture, OR did he either knowingly or unknowingly or a bit of both, 'co-opt' more ancient knowledge and practice by peoples who DID not reject spiritual reality? because from what I have learnt, Indigenous peoples have used many of these principles us moderns are only just re-learning thanks to the likes of Bill Mollison and others, so if anyone has 'co-opted' it is us moderns who have been 'educated' into a worldview which dismisses and discredits any knowledge and experience of spirits. I am not however saying I know what 'spirits' are and this is reason often I will put commas around that term as I will around 'spirituality'. The last term is a loaded term which western religion as cut off from the material realm and stuck it in the sky, so whenever I say that term I am not meaning it that way, but in the way that I see 'matter' and 'spirit' as not two conceptual catetogories, but a unified dynamic whole as is dak and ligght, good and bad, male and female life and death etc. As I am saying in the other forums, I am all for questioning which is fun and steers us away from authoritarianism, because many of the questions we ask we cannot declare we absolutely know, but however it IS important to explore. So if any of you join in this discussion and I question or challenge views, you can do same to me and it is this exploration that is fruitful, and hopefully we can learn from each other even though we may not agree with stuff. I am re-reading this fascinating book by Jerejmy Narby called The Cosmic Serpent, where he comes to the extrarodinay insights that Indigenous people say and mean that they get their knowledge from plant spirits, and that what they find out mythically correlates in many ways with science. So this is kind of the merging of these very seemingly different worldviews. I think stuff like this needs to be addressed and explored, don't you?