plants, shrubs, trees that are acidifiers?

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by songbird, Jan 26, 2014.

  1. mouseinthehouse

    mouseinthehouse Junior Member

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    There are free-living species of nitrogen fixing bacteria in soils that do not form symbiotic relationships with plants. These bacteria must find other sources of energy to power the process of nitrogen fixation.
     
  2. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    Yes, absolutely.

    Diazotrophs fix atmospheric nitrogen.
     
  3. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    I was specifically thinking of your part of the world and the destruction of the great plains for farming which helped cause the dust bowl effect, in addition to growing grass for lawns; but more lawns then anything else. Have you or any one else ever see a grass farm for sod?
     
  4. Rick Larson

    Rick Larson Junior Member

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    Can the bacteria that has the relationship with a tree fix nitrogen without it?
     
  5. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    yes

    Whatever the bacteria is eating, the Nitrogen is the poop as a vivid metaphor.
     
  6. mouseinthehouse

    mouseinthehouse Junior Member

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    But only SOME can do so without the intimate symbiotic relationship with plants.

    I don't believe that Rhizobia or Frankia (those bacteria who form symbiotic relationships with trees/plants) are known to fix nitrogen WITHOUT such associations - the association is crucial in supplying the energy required for the Nitrogenase fixation process.
     
  7. Rick Larson

    Rick Larson Junior Member

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    How did the tree figure out to feed the bacteria in exchange for nitrogen? Since the tree also does the similar with fungi, wouldn't it be reasonable to believe that it is the tree that prompted these relationships, and not the other way around?
     
  8. NGcomm

    NGcomm Junior Member

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    Not that I am aware, but the host doesn't have to be a plant. In aquaponics you have the nitrogen cycle kicked off by fish excrement or even just kelp based plant food. So the concept of 'host' just means 'food'. Everything needs food to survive, if bacteria don't get it they go dormant or die. There is also debate about if the nitrogen is available straight away or only when the bacteria dies. I go with the 'dies' perspective and consequently farm protozoa to eat the bacteria and make this nitrogen available.
     
  9. mouseinthehouse

    mouseinthehouse Junior Member

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    It is just one of countless examples of co-evolution.

    https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/IIIFCoevolution.shtml
     
  10. NGcomm

    NGcomm Junior Member

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    Cool question - Dr Elaine Ingham proposes that plants around a billion years ago had to adapt by creating different exudates (flavonoids etc.) to be able to stay alive. The bacteria and fungus were some of the first things on earth and they were already doing a good job of surviving by utilising base chemicals in the atmosphere. The plants that figured out what to tempt the biology with got fed in response and the rest didn't evolve quickly enough. So yes, the tree figured out how to use the fungus and bacteria. It also figured out how to tempt protozoa and nematodes into its rhizosphere to eat these guys up and release the nutrients stored in them.

    But the trees ain't controlling the game, they are just bit players. Around 8% of our genome is in fact bacterial material, we can't digest things without bacteria, a mother dumps a heap of bacteria into a child's gut just before birth and then around 15%-20% of the structure of breast milk is only digestible by the bacteria. There is even speculation that births via C section have a higher rate of asthma as a consequence of this reduced bacterial flora. The amount of bacterial mass in your body weighs as much as your brain, there is 100 times more bacterial genetic material in you than human. Bacteria are in a symbiotic relationship with us also. Symbiosis may be a misnomer as they do exactly the same as we do with this planet and I would hardly call what we do a symbiotic relationship. We, just like bacteria, just live to consume and propagate.

    The root ancestor of the bacteria we have now probably arrived on meteors during the early part of the earths creation - and ended up making a world we could evolve on. Without them and fungus we wouldn't be here and they will be here even after every person and tree is gone.
     
  11. Rick Larson

    Rick Larson Junior Member

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    Interesting. I think you are right about that point.

    I have actually thought about bacteria is what controls humans. Like candida prompting cravings for the food it needs. But ultimately, humans (yeah, right, very few of them) can recognize the candida connection and then starve most of them out, nearly eliminating the cravings.

    So some trees can also recognize their relationships? All I am typing there is more to those trees than is taught at the universities.
     
  12. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    Let me be more clear...

    Waste breaks down in humus and makes ammonia.
    Nitrosomonas Bacteria then breaks ammonia to Nitrite.
    Nitrobacter bacteria then break down Nitrite into Nitrate.
    Nitrates are now oxidized by Anaerobic bacteria.

    Welcome to the Nitrogen cycle in our world.
     
  13. Rick Larson

    Rick Larson Junior Member

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    Interesting. Where did you learn that Pak? Are hungry forever munching anaerobic bacteria the only way "nitrates are now oxidized"?
     
  14. mouseinthehouse

    mouseinthehouse Junior Member

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    Okay there is some confusion here and talking at cross purposes.

    There are several types of bacteria that fix nitrogen.

    *Those which have an obligate mutualistic relationship with plants. In this catergory we have those that have a relationship with legumes: Rhizobium. And we have those which have a relationship with non-legumes: Frankia, Azospirillum. These bacteria DO NOT fix nitrogen independently.

    *Those which are Free Living. In this category we have those which are aerobic: Azobacter, Beijerinckia, some Klebsiella and some Cyanobacteria.
    Then there are the anaerobic: Clostridium and some other sulpher and non-sulpherous bacteria.

    Hope this helps clarify which bacteria do what and where. I am fairly rusty on this stuff so the detail might be sketchy but I did do many years of hard slog for my Bachelor of Science in Biology so I hope that I have some handle on this. :)
     
  15. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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