planting veges on septic trench system

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by coastalhelen, Jul 23, 2007.

  1. briansworms

    briansworms Junior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,161
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    I think I support Len on this one. Water on this planet is the same water that was here from the start of time and has been recycled over billions of years. It would have passed through countless animals and people in that time and been piddled out just to go back around again. If it wasn't filtered and taken up by plants etc we would all have been dead long ago. The whole planet would have gone toxic. I would be happy to eat food grown over a septic drainage area.

    The problem with the world today is everybody is too over clean. Young kids don't get the exposure to germs thus no resistance and everybody gets sick. If we die from eating food from over a septic system after 70 or 80 years ,who cares. Our time is up anyway.
     
  2. Unmutual

    Unmutual Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2012
    Messages:
    599
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Urine is sterile. I use urine on my compost pile all the time(as a matter of fact, that's where my morning pee just went). Cutting urine 20:1 with water is a great fertilizer(high in nitrogen). Urine can be used as an anitseptic for wounds(and has been used as such in wars). I'm not talking about urine.

    I think the problem is more directly the amount of medicines being pumped into meat(and by extension into milk and eggs) to keep it alive under cruel conditions. Bacteria and viruses evolve so that they can survive and thrive. This is why doctors are worried about the future of antibiotics. E. coli is naturally found in animal intestines(including humans) and is normally safe. But if you buy milk or meat from the store, the antibiotics that are overfed to the animals can cause the E. coli(and other beneficial bacteria) to evolve(inside your intestines no less), and sometimes not in a good way(the recent German outbreak was from a new variety of E. coli, not the usual suspect). Of course, the only result you might have is diarrhea for a couple of days as your body adjusts. The young and the elderly are, just like with the flu, the most susceptible to serious reactions because their immune systems aren't performing properly(because they either haven't had the chance to get natural immunity or because their immune system is simply not working like it used to).

    So just like people can get resistances to certain illnesses, so can bacteria and viruses get immunity to your white blood cells. If you personally want to take the risk with using manure at inappropriate times during vegetable gardening, then good look to you. You may never get infected, depending on the source of the manure and the time you put the manure on the plants(there are accepted cultural practices). With a septic system, you have no control of when any bacteria or viruses come out. And I'll also state, for a second time, I am unsure if anything will survive the septic tank.

    All you have to do is google "using raw manure on crops" and you'll get tons of information on this subject, mostly from people who have done research on the subject rather than just saying that they don't know anyone who has gotten sick from it. Then, while you're at it, google "septic tank effluent". In a properly functioning septic system, the bacteria and other microbes are filtered by the soil and solid wastes remain in the tank. This would lead me to think that root crops would be a bad idea whether the septic system was running well or not. I'm just not positive on the original poster's septic system, how well the system is maintained, etc.

    If, like Len, all you have is gray water with limited harsh chemicals and no black water going out to the leach field, then it's fine since there is no feces. But the original poster is using a septic tank, which means black water.
     
  3. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2005
    Messages:
    1,442
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    >>>Cottager, the link to the DDT breaking down is in the link in my post about no legal definition for "biodegradable." It was an extreme example of how the word "biodegradable" can be applied to anything that breaks down, regardless of what whether it breaks down into something that is safe or not.

    There is no time element standard that any manufacturer is held to, except in the UK (6 months) about using the word 'biodegradable" on the label.

    >>>>briansworms, "If it wasn't filtered and taken up by plants etc we would all have been dead long ago" When you say that, you realize that we didn't have shampoo, conditioners, household cleansers, degreasers, soap scum removers, and all the household chemicals we put down the drain every day until approx. 100 years ago. The use of gray water going into the soil is illegal, not because governments suck, but because there is no way to control the chemicals we put down the drain. And those chemicals dissolve in water, and are floated out into those leach lines, and take up by the plants within weeks if not days.

    >>>Unmutual, the feces and urine are not the issue here. Plants don't uptake e. coli from the water in a septic tank. The issue with e.coli is from splash-up when uncomposted manure is spread openly on the ground. Or cows pooping in a river where downstream they are pumping out that water to go through sprinklers onto vegetables like lettuce.

    Aside from the medications, as you mentioned, there is no problem with composting feces and urine and using it on vegetable plants. It may be illegal, but there are no chemicals involved, unless it's in a septic tank where all the household cleaners, and toothpaste with fluoride go. That's the issue here, chemicals. And, yes, there's e. coli in a composting toilet, but those of us who use composting toilets are knowledgable about the handling and processing of strictly composting toilet contents.

    And where's this list of "limited harsh chemicals" that you say are safe?


    And everyone, let's remember the very successful process of bioremediation, where land is left contaminated by industry or landfills and they grow specific plants on it to suck up the chemicals, intentionally, because that's what plants do. Then they remove the plants that now contain the chemical they wanted to get rid of.


    I don't understand all the resistance to trying to make the contents of a septic tank safer, less full of chemicals. I thought this was the group that wanted to be as safe and natural as possible. But until someone shows me that labels on household products can be trusted when they use the word "biodegradable" there's going to be a big change at my house.
     
  4. Ludi

    Ludi Junior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2011
    Messages:
    779
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    I think you need to know the contents of the products you put down the drain if you plan to eat vegetables grown on the effluent. Most of these chemicals can be researched on the internet and one can see if there are safety studies and the results. My personal motto is, when in doubt, leave it out. That is, if you do not know or are not sure if an ingredient is safe, don't use it. Most of us should probably not be putting a lot of these things on our bodies. Don't trust labels that tell you it is safe. Most chemicals in common use have never been tested for safety.

    https://www.ourstolenfuture.org/Myths/safetymyth.htm
     
  5. Unmutual

    Unmutual Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2012
    Messages:
    599
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    This is a problem. I use those peat pellet seed germination tablet things and that outer wrapping takes forever to degrade(i usually just take it off and throw it in the compost pile), even though it's supposedly biodegradable. Same thing with peat pots...they take way too long to break down from their original form, and these are items for gardeners to use. Biodegradable labeling(along with a lot of other buzzwords) should be defined better.

    There's also the issue with the oceans and the fact that they can't handle our waste any longer.

    I'm not sure using human waste for compost is illegal, sewage sludge is sold as compost(along with animal tankage).

    It's not the fact that e. coli is present, it's the PPM that's important.

    If all you're concerned with are chemicals, then fine. Chemicals will be your day to day issue with using gray water regardless.

    I have no idea. I guess sometimes it makes a difference on how much of a chemical you use, but if you want a septic system to run right, you don't want to flush down chemicals that kill bacteria.

    Exactly, those plants are removed and are treated as a toxic waste. You don't plant lettuce in lead contaminated soil and then eat it. But if the plant bears fruit, that fruit might be edible(such as with lead contaminated, though it still might be dependent on the level of contamination).

    The OP didn't mention what he was putting in the septic tank. I'm making the assumption that it also contains black water. I think we(or just me) got sidetracked somewhere is all.
     
  6. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

    Joined:
    May 14, 2004
    Messages:
    3,464
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    septic tank water is black water, fro definition purposes as against grey water from other household activities, which we often collect and sue to water plants and gardens, the water only becomes black by definition once it is in the septic tank. now someone correctly mentioned sewerage, all sorts of stuff go in their from up to medium industrial waste, hospital waste and the myriad of stuff thousands upon thousands of people flush down it. had a toilet blockage and plumber duly poured a kilo of sulfuric acid down the drain to try and clear it, bet he wasn't the only one. acid never evaporates, they recycle sewerage water into drinking water in lots of places, maybe some here are drinking it? he bought it as a labelled drain unblocker.

    so now not as much sewerage water ends up in the oceans, and the solids (containing all sorts of goodies, chem' residuals from chemo' therapy and medications plus plus) it is composted and used as the base for most potting mixes and garden soil improvers, it is added to that material they create and rubbish collection places the stuff many collect for use in their gardens.

    apart from pigs most other manures come from herbivorous animals so what e-coli will be in their manures? none almost well not the killer ones anyway, and well mulched gardens won't allow splash to occur but again i have never experienced any issues nor those who share vege's with me, i have never heard of anyone suffering, so where is the hospital wards or doctor's surgeries, full of patients sick and dying??

    no paranoia fro me please no fear hype programs either, the hard facts and nothing less, fact one i have never suffered eating my own food or food from others gardens.

    as for plants sucking up chemical residues? you only have their word for that, most of us grow potato's of some sort they are supposed to take up all sorts of stuff including heavy metals lead included, yet we still eat the spuds, never heard of anyone with lead poisoning from eating spuds?

    lots of industrial liquid wastes added into that stuff they create at the dump.

    at least with septic and composting toilets those property owners are keeping their waste on site, most leech fields i see have the best looking grasses growing on them, and if not cut regular will grow and grow. some graze milking goats and house cows on it then drink the milk. reckon there is no real evidence to support the fear hype.

    len
     
  7. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2005
    Messages:
    1,442
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Here's some info on the chemicals we use routinely and flush/empty down our drains:

    https://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_279.cfm

    "The detergent metabolites the USGS detected were members of a class of chemicals called alkylphenol ethoxylates (APEs). APEs, which include nonylphenol ethoxylates and octylphenol ethoxylates, are surfactants, or "surface active agents" that are key to detergents' effectiveness. They are added to some laundry detergents, disinfectants, laundry stain removers, and citrus cleaner/degreasers. When discharged in municipal waste water, nonylphenol ethoxylates and octylphenol ethoxylates break down into nonylphenol and octylphenol, which are more toxic and do not readily biodegrade in soil and water. APEs have been shown to mimic the hormone estrogen, and their presence in water may be harming the reproduction and survival of salmon and other fish. For example, in Britain, researcher John Sumpter discovered that male fish exposed to APEs in rivers were producing female egg-yolk proteins. APE pollution may be threatening fish in the U.S. as well, for octylphenol and nonylphenol were the detergent metabolites that the USGS detected in 69% of streams tested here. Such ubiquity may not bode well for humans, either: the APE p-nonylphenol has also caused estrogen-sensitive breast cancer cells to proliferate in test tubes."

    So I know those of you who don't want to have this be true say we have nothing to do with test tubes, but that's not true. That's how they found out about what human exposure is safe and not safe, is by exposing it to things in test tubes first, like the frogs with 6 legs and the insects with two heads :)

    And how many of us thought citrus degreasers were relatively natural? *raises hand*

    "Another famous water pollutant is phosphates, water-softening mineral additives that were once widely used in laundry detergents and other cleaners. When phosphates enter waterways, they act as a fertilizer, spawning overgrowth of algae. This overabundance of aquatic plant life eventually depletes the water's oxygen supply, killing off fish and other organisms. Although many states have banned phosphates from laundry detergents and some other cleaners, they are still used in automatic dishwasher detergents."


    Unmutual, I'm afraid the fruit has the same stuff in it as the leaves, the roots are feeding both things, so the fruit/vegetable should not be eaten if there's any question about what's in the water that fed the plant.

    Len, with all due respect, just because you haven't heard of it happening, doesn't mean it isn't happening :)
     
  8. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

    Joined:
    May 14, 2004
    Messages:
    3,464
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    i await your revelations of such events sweetpea,

    i did point out earlier about all the chemicals that we know of lots we don't so it is not only householders, still a lot of self interest fear hype involved in the research you point to.

    using chemicals in the home is carte blanche just like but not as bad as what industry use and dump into the system.

    len
     
  9. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2005
    Messages:
    1,442
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    "still a lot of self interest fear hype involved in the research you point to."

    what self-interest hype in that research? Can we be specific?
     
  10. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

    Joined:
    May 14, 2004
    Messages:
    3,464
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    simple sweetpea,

    research costs money someone pays someone provides the research service teh person who pays uses it to their advantage, it simply is not independent or neutral, that is it pure and simple, i told you all i know most fits with your belief but you still argue against it.

    gov' agencies and their researchers might be less than honest their integrity can be bought into question and they definitely have vested interests.

    len
     
  11. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2005
    Messages:
    1,442
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    so I guess what you are telling me, Len, is that what you know doesn't have any special interest involved, and you know that people are not getting sick from using water that has household chemicals in it, and that you are keeping track of the world's population and who gets sick, and who doesn't ,and why they get sick since the beginning of the industrialization of the Western countries, and what they've been exposed to, and we're supposed to believe you. And if a government agency keeps track of these same things, using databases, and thousands of people's case histories, that they are suspect and not to be believed? I really don't understand.
     
  12. Ludi

    Ludi Junior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2011
    Messages:
    779
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
  13. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

    Joined:
    May 14, 2004
    Messages:
    3,464
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    i don't have a vested interest no money or station or power in it for me, costs me to run my web site, i try to encourage people to educate themselves before they use or do something, yes as per news the other day youngsters getting into mums laundry cupboard and eating those new bag things that dissolve in the wash machine, people suffer living in homes drenched with chemicals to control termites answer build a better home. we all suffer from chem' residues in all food stuffs we eat 9maybe excluding our own even if watered with laundry or shower water), i have CFS from eating fresh empty mono-cultured food full of chem' residues, they won't do research to prove that point, no one is interested gov' and chem' co's probably more so that the hapless farmer make mega bucks.

    you yourself are only scratching the surface.

    so what is my vested interest sweetpea? you know nothing about me, my web page should tell you heaps in a way but again i ask for no reward.

    len
     
  14. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2005
    Messages:
    1,442
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Bummer, Len, about the CFS. We are exposed to so much these days, I don't know if they'll ever be able to pull it apart and say what is and isn't affecting us :)
     
  15. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

    Joined:
    May 14, 2004
    Messages:
    3,464
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    yep not good even medico's up to specialist level agree CFS and its lifestyle disease mates are all anomalies, they claim a test but specialist consulting physician says no such thing exists same with coeliac they have no idea and no test for intolerance even looks like existing. the causes all involve bad agricultural practices and the use of chemicals and trans-genetic manipulation. and then people trust them and drink recycled sewer water, or buy bottled water most of which comes out of town taps.

    len
     

Share This Page

-->