Permaworld a great organization

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by Geoff Lawton, Aug 27, 2005.

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  1. Geoff Lawton

    Geoff Lawton Administrator Staff Member

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    Hi All
    Sorry for being a bit slow on the reply but we’ve been consumed with work here in the Jordan Valley. Check the latest article on the articles page.

    Permaworld is a great organization raising funds for permaculture projects around the world, a section of their operation called Permafund.

    As I am also a director of Permaculture International Limited I know they direct their funding good causes.

    We at The Permaculture Research Institute are registered members of permaworld number 262 and we are interested in directing our website viewers to register with permaworld with The Permaculture Research Institute as your original contact. This way we gain some commission which we can aim at our project work.

    Below is an email from Permaworld I received 10/8/05

    Cheers Geoff :D

    Hello 262,
    the following thread in the Permaworld On-line Forum has important
    information regarding YOUR commissions. The Permaworld Admin Team would
    appreciate any feedback that you might have about these soon to be made
    changes.
    The link to visit for your comments is the following:

    https://www.forum.permaworld.com/showthr ... 0#post4590

    Regards

    Peramworld Admin Team :D
     
    Grace Pignatello likes this.
  2. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    Perma Fund

    Hello Geoff..I dunno if you read all the comments on your board re the Permafund etc...But after being a strong proponent over the years or mlm and never making any money ,oops $22.50 once lol.Also reading our nice enlightened veiwers responces, I reluctantly will be forgoing the oppourtunity to make a killing.Its not the system that dont work, its the People lolol.People are suss about most things, even more theses days.
    I been beating brows for 16 years to people to do permaculture,and/or MLM both have been very poor results actually more for the money then permaculture(Yep beleive me its true)so after taken in to account another 3000 permies saying no thanks ill give it a miss......

    NOW.If you were to ask me for $100 for some shares in Permaculture NOW THAT ID DO. i even think i could persuade some others to do same..
    Why cant you, Bill or who ever, Float Permaculture on the stock market..
    Reason. Over 50% of people own shares in companys.against i dunno maybe 1% of people are permies....hope my guess on figures are wrong and its higher lol..

    Heck even i would buy shares in companys, if i was sure they didnt manufacture arms,destroy forrests,displace people,destroy the envioroment etc etc...At least people wouldnt ask, or make negative comments and make everyone susspicious before we even start.

    Lets float Permaculture Foat ,Float, Float.

    Any income can still be used for worthwile projects anywhere in Aussie or world And Truly become a global force....
    Im not suggesting shares should be $100 but thats what just under a year will get u in permafund and nothing to show for it (maybe) at least if i was destitute i could resell my shares lolol.

    What do my fellow boardies have to say to this concept..
    I know this idea may seem a bit fancifull or even stupid, but Im sure theres enough brain power amongst us to do this ...

    Dont keep us too long with a answer here Geoff moneys burning a hole in my pocket lol

    Tezza
     
  3. earthbound

    earthbound Junior Member

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    Please noooooooooooo.......

    Buy and sell shares in permacuture? Isn't that going against the whole basis of permaculture. The very nature of the share market is that it has to return dividends to it's investors, and make them money. A corporate body which is legaly classified as a person with all the rights in todays society of a person, yet with no soul, no remorse or guilt, no feelings, and a view of right and wrong which equates to 'I must make money for my share holders'...

    Surely there are better ways to put your money to good use. Buy localy produced goods, you pay a little extra and that money goes into local small businesses and producers.

    OK, you don't get much in the way of a monetary return.

    Buy an area of native bush land and stick a caveat on it so that it can never be cleared, you will still make money out of it in the long term when you sell it, yet you'll be doing something for the good of the world. If you can't afford to do it yourself get a group of investors (friends) together and buy some degraded land. Then you can improve the land planting and managing, practicing permaculture and making money from it in the long term.

    I think YOUR ideals are in the right place, but a corporation has no ideals by it's very nature.
    Permaculture is about creating sustainable permanent cultures, sustainability and permanancy can never come from a monetary growth based system.

    I've just finished watching the first disk of Michael Moores "the corporation" this morning, what an eye opener, well worth watching. I guess thats why I feel a little bit hot about this subject.


    Joel
     
  4. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    Oh so sorry i didnt know youd be stressed out so much.
    Take a herbal calmative and re read this again tommorow, when your back to normal again.... smiles

    The "Shareholders" are Permaculturists. Not as in "Capatilist Pig"

    As for Your land Idea That Sounds Bloody Excelent.

    I been working on some land concepts my self here in west aussie if your interested, or anyone for that matter... [email protected]

    As for the mike moore thingy, if by chance it got accidently copied could i get one off you or you show where i can from...Please

    Tezza
     
  5. earthbound

    earthbound Junior Member

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    No herbal clamative could change my mind on that one.... :oops:

    Although the original shareholders might be permaculturalists the shares are traded to anyone, floated on the open market for anyone to buy and sell as they wish. Anyone could become a share holder, anyone could become a major shareholder helping swing company decisions anyway they wish.

    I wonder how long it would take before the board begins to make decisions which cut corners and make concessions to make some more profits. And even if the board refuses to lower their principles, share holders can vote to have members of the board sacked........

    Theoretically Mr Sheen (Howard) or Packer or any unsavoury character with a bit of money, can buy up enough shares to become a major share holder, and then start steering things in whichever direction they choose under the guise of permaculture. When in reality they haven't the slightest idea what permaculture is about. McDonalds, imagine that, Mcdonalds decides that it would be a great thing for their image to become a major share holder in 'Permaculture Inc'... Even better, Monsanto..... :shock:

    I think your right Tezza, sun is well past the yard arm I'm off to have a liquid calmative. :? will email you off group about your ideas..
     
  6. frosty

    frosty Junior Member

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    the Corporation is an excellent documentary but sorry earthbound I am fairly sure it is not made by Mike Moore :? I think it was European

    tezza if you had seen the Corporation you would not be suggesting a public company :roll: a Corporation has no conscience and is only obligation is to make money no matter what the consequences ...... as the doco says it is unlawful to do otherwise ....... it is all quite frightening

    personally I prefer to go solo ( well me and mr frosty only ) ........ every good idea/ activity always gets stuffed up once people get involved :p

    the idea of preserving the natural bush is en excellent one ....... we are keeping a bit more than half our block as bush

    if you want a group these guys are looking to do much like what you propose

    https://www.safecom.org.au/home.htm

    well among other things

    and BTW I hate MLM :roll: it seems to attract the worst kind of greedy people yet I chuckle that none of them ever seem to make money ..... in 10 years as a tax accountant I never did a tax return for anyone involved in mlm that did much better than break even :lol: :lol: yet they all came in telling me they were big time business people

    frosty
     
  7. murray

    murray Junior Member

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    Grabbing a line from The Corporation, one can define a psychopath as someone with no moral conscience, a blatant disregard for rules and laws, or has killed people.

    Using this definition, one would be forced to conclude that some of the biggest companies could be classed as psychopaths.

    You wouldn't employ children to make your sports shoes cheap, would you? You probably wouldn't fire 30,000 of your friends and move to Mexico so you could save a few bucks and you most probably wouldn't dump your toxic pollutants into the river or air sometimes killing thousands of people.

    But hey! Different strokes for different folks right?

    So listen to me when I tell you to Please - Treat - Psychopaths - With - Caution.
     
  8. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    The Corporation is a Canadian film, though Michael Moore appears in it.

    If it sounds too good to be true, chances are it IS too good to be true.

    MLM does seem to attract the greediest people, but some people are buying, and some people are selling, so no harm done. In some ways MLM is a good economic model, though I have never been involved directly.

    Permaworld is not MLM. Permaworld ( :pukeright: :pukeright: :pukeright: :pukeleft: :pukeleft: :pukeleft: check out the neat emoticons, these are appropriate!) is the worst kind of growth economics. Without a steady stream of an ever expanding base of new participants, the cash stream dries up. Those at the top will have benefitted hugely, and those at the bottom have made nothing. The growth of that market is limited by the population of gullible/greedy people, and once the last tier can't find more participants, the "growth" stops. This is simple math.

    I know Geoff is in favor of Permaworld, and if the definition of a great organization is defined only as one that gives money to worthy organizations, then Permaworld is a great organization.

    However, the underlying economics of perpetual growth, of every person signing finding five people, and those five people finding five each, and those 25 finding five each, then each of those 125 people finding another five people, and that 625 finding five more, each, and that 3125 finding another five per person, etc, is not supportable, and the bottom HAS to drop out eventually... WITHIN 4 MORE LEVELS, THEY NEED TO FIND A BASE OF 9,765,625 PEOPLE. To support the next level, the pyramid needs 48,828,125 people. After that, 2.4 billion people. The following levels.... 12.2 billion people, and then I think we need new planets to support this type of growth economics. That ain't going to happen.

    This is not sustainable, and I stick with my previous assertion that once you take away the permie rap and permie graphics, and whether or not a percentage goes to worthy permaculture efforts, underlying the whole plan is a predatory economic model they preys on peoples desires to make money without effort, as well as peoples nicer instincts to see good where perhaps there is no good to be seen.

    Instead of giving Permaworld money, for them to give a percentage to Permaculture Research Institute, give the money directly to PRI and cut out the middle men. Or, give PRI %50 of your donation, and go buy yourself some tools, a piece of land, form a community based land trust, or something positive. Feeding Permaworld only helps Permaworld, and most of you will never see any of the money coming in that Permaworld promises.

    (As an aside, I would love to donate USD50 to PRI. I have seen some of the work that you guys have done, and I am impressed. How do I do it?)

    This from Permaworlds forum (which only seem to talk about MLM and making money, almost nothing about Permaculture, read it carefully, its all about making money, not permaculture), posted in 2004 by Permacultureact at Ecohaven Earthvillage (me thinks Permaculture Activist, a N. American Permaculture magazine):

    "3 years, 103 in downline and not a dime. Why bother?"

    If they aren't making money after signing on 103 people over three years, does anyone here think that they will?

    There is no "new" economics here. It is the same time tested old pyramid scheme painted in permaculture paint.

    Donate your money to worthy organizations directly, buy land, buy organic food, buy Fairtrade items, spend your money consciously. Permaworld is still a pyramid scheme, not MLM, and most of you will never make a penny of your money back, even if occasionally they donate some of their money to worthy organizations.

    I'm just an organic farmer who grows about %85 of my food, on a degraded piece of land that was a cattle and citrus farm, and have been for the last 17 years, working pretty hard on a nice piece of land, two miles from the road, not an economist, not an attorney nor an accountant, and, truthfully, I should be out working on other things. I have nothing invested in Permaworld, and I will not benefit if anyone throws their money away with Permaworld or not, but I hate to see such a transparent scam like Permaworld being promoted in the name of permaculture. Save your money, donate directly if you want to benefit some organization, buy land, but don't give Permaworld a penny of your valuable hard earned money. Just my .02.

    Check the following for more information:
    https://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/perm ... 15344.html

    and a good quote from https://www.dsa.org/selling/pyramid.htm
    "Things you should know about pyramid schemes
    They are losers. Pyramiding is based on simple mathematics: many losers pay a few winners.
    *******They are fraudulent. Participants in a pyramid scheme are, consciously or unconsciously, deceiving those they recruit. Few would pay to join if the diminishing odds were explained to them.*******
    They are illegal. There is a real risk that a pyramid operation will be closed down by law enforcement officials and the participants subject to fines and possible arrest."

    And, for a legal view:
    https://www.legal-database.com/pyramid-schemes.htm

    BTW, Joel, wow, aquaponics, coooooool! My financial advice would be invest in that sort of system...... :lol: , defintely get some better returns than with any MLM scam.
     
  9. Penny

    Penny Junior Member

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    Capitalisim

    Whoa Christopher that really got you going didn't it. I agree with your points and have only one to offer.
    Sounds just like capitalism again. The system relies on ever increasing production and cosumption of production, therefore it is unsustainable.
     
  10. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Hi Penny,

    I guess it did get me going. Hope I didn't offend anyone :oops: . I probably did.

    It is just such a transparent rip off for all of the reasons I stated, and your reasons, too. Makes me want to find the puking emoticon again. :lol:

    Let's see, okay, here they are, champions of emotional expression, puking on demand, puking because pyramid schemes make me sick, puking on my behalf, the puking emoticons :pukeright: :pukeright: :pukeleft: :pukeleft:

    Thank you puking emoticons.

    Much prefer positive things like our ducks :duckie: :duckie: :duckie:, can't find chickens, and the fish I have been losing sleep over that Joel is raising in his aquaponics system, and here are the emoticon fish :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish:

    Heres a salute to Joels fantastic set up :wav: at https://www.backyardaquaponics.com, check THAT out!

    That is worth investing some money in. Better money spent, IMO, than pie in the sky pyramid schemes.

    Best,

    Christopher
     
  11. Permaworld

    Permaworld New Member

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    Out Of Date Information

    I saw this post and yes I am a proponent of Permaworld so thought it was time that this thread was brought up to date with some factual information.

    2001 Yes Permaworld did commence life as an MLM style business and yes people did make money and Organisations were supported.

    Problem was that the 'business' side was not supported sufficiently in order to just keep that side viable.

    2005 No Permaworld is no longer an MLM business it is now a product oriented business that sells to customers via an affiliate sales team. Costs nothing to become an affiliate and make money. If an affiliate likes the products they can become a customer and affiliate and working this way we give them extra commissions on all sales (70%)

    Our products are aimed at the Internet webhosting and marketing tools.

    So if anyone wants to check out the changes please do so via Geoff's link in the first post as this way you are supporting PIL and you just might find that we have the product you need for your on-line business.

    Ray
    Permaworld Admin Team Support.
     
  12. SueinWA

    SueinWA Junior Member

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    Oh, poo on MLM! It's a con game!

    But what about a privately-held non-profit permaculture corporation?

    (I've though about this for almost a full five minutes while I was putting my potato/leek soup together [all home-grown except the celery!] )

    Let's see... a company started and run by permies. Object: to spread the word on PC, and a heavy percentage of the money made would be put back into the company. The people actively contributing time would get a wage (nobody is going to get rich on it).

    Buy a piece of land not too far from an urban center (that's where all the people are, like it or not), and permaculture it. People could donate money or time to get it started. There could be a modest charge for tours. There could be modest charges for classes in PC, chook care, aquaponics, earth moving (swales, etc), food preservation, PC/organic CSAs, etc. Foods grown on the farm could be sold at the farm on tour days, or at a local farmers market or roadside stand.

    This is just off the top of my head, mind you. Use capitalism to forward permaculture.

    Sue
     
  13. barely run

    barely run Junior Member

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    Dumb question??????what's MLM????
    Cathy :?:
     
  14. snaggs

    snaggs Junior Member

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    I take it that most people here growing there own vegetables can;

    Eat very well
    Have a very enjoyable past time

    So why all this talk of money? Make it all free and OpenSource. That is what corporations fear, FREE, because there is no business model they can wrap around that.

    When I finish developing my microcontroller program, it will be available free. If people wish to put some money in my pocket maybe Ill make a printed manual available for $30 or something.

    Permaculture/Organic/SlowFood movements are about fixing a difficult problem which most people are ignoring (arnt they?). Imagine if there was just one suburb, in the world, which was made sustainable. It would be a beacon, showing that its possible, and now its just a matter of replicating it.

    Our parents screwed it up, we have to fix it, our children will get the benefits. We won't ever see anything out of it than some guilt free sleeps.

    Daniel.
     
  15. Tamandco

    Tamandco Junior Member

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    Cathy, I've got no effing idea either. (that's a deer with no eyes and no penis. If it had no legs, still no idea)

    How can you sell or float permaculture. It's been around a lot longer than some smart cookie decided to give it a name and market it. I'd been doing it even before I knew it existed, just out of instinct. :?

    This whole thread's gone right over my head. I think I'll go back outside in the rain and finish planting my new curcubit garden.

    Tam
     
  16. baldcat

    baldcat Junior Member

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    Agree mate, So what does your microcontroller do ?? I love open source :)
     
  17. snaggs

    snaggs Junior Member

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    Im ordering one of these;

    [​IMG]

    This is a computer about the size of a credit card.. 7.5cm x 6.5cm, and can be powered of a small battery (and/or a small solar panel).

    What I can do, is plug in up to 24 digital sensors and 11 analog sensors, and then control 16 digital outputs and 4 analog outputs.

    So this means, I could measure temperature, soil moisture, acidity etc, control motors, valves and pumps to add water, heat the water, add metered doses of vinigar or salt to correct PH levels and then start a pump for 10 seconds to make sure it gets mixed in quickly. I could also control the flood valve on the barrel ponics so I don't have to build a mechanical control device, and it can be self correcting. I could also email myself daily soil reports on how each plant is going ;)

    It also means you could add different amounts of water to each garden bed based on needs.

    My plan is to start simple, and build up.

    1) Control the flood valve for the aquaponics system

    and then

    2) Automate watering of a convention garden bed for vegetables which dont grow aquaponics..

    and then Ill expand it from there. Rule for any project is to ensure success early on, so that you get encouraged to keep going :) The possibilites are limitless.

    Daniiel.
     
  18. baldcat

    baldcat Junior Member

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    SIGN ME UP >>>> I love toys :)

    Hell When I get mine I want it to feed the chooks and let them out to range. :)
     
  19. ~Tullymoor~

    ~Tullymoor~ Junior Member

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    OMG Daniel, just wait til Cwis gets back....he's gonna go sick at having you here now!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

    Why don't you repost that last post of yours into the aquaponics thread?? People will find it better then....
     
  20. SueinWA

    SueinWA Junior Member

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    MLM = Multi-Level Marketing. You buy in, the person who "sold" you on it gets half, the person before him gets a quarter, the person before him gets an eighth, etc. But it is not mathmatically sound. It is actually one step up from what is called a "Ponzi Scheme", a con created by a master criminal in the U.S. The only difference is that in MLM, there is actually a product.

    "So why all this talk of money? Make it all free and OpenSource." You obviously have enough money to buy another toy, so you must be selling something, so why shouldn't someone who has knowledge (like Joel) make enough money on it to pay for a wedding ring, dental work for his kids, tires for the van, taxes and all the other stuff that he could use that he can't trade fish for?

    We live in an age of expanding knowledge. As nice as it would be to give it away, it isn't very realistic. I suspect that most of the permie people here are employed outside their home. So, to help other people learn, you want them to work full-time, possibly spend a lot of time and money commuting, then use their precious time off to give away what may have taken them $$ and time to learn? Why not make a job for them doing and/or teaching what they know?

    Permies whine about the destruction of the Earth, that the "movement" isn't moving fast enough, everyone else is doing everything wrong. Then there are the people who want to learn, but there aren't enough to tearch because they're working in some deadend, mindless job. There sort of seems to be a connection, doesn't there?

    Pure self-sufficiency today is an idealistic farce, and it would be nice if the people who think they're purists would get off their high horses and get a good dose of reality.

    "Pure Permaculture" is fairyland.

    Sue
     
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