Discussion in 'The big picture' started by mouseinthehouse, Jan 15, 2013.
Surely Permaculture without community is organic gardening.
Freedom that is conceived entirely in personal terms, that has no institutional embodiment [argued Bookchin] languishes as a narcissistic indulgence. A society that sustains both individual and social freedom, must be undergirded by institutions that are themselves liberatory. It must provide the structural means by which citizens can collectively manage their own affairs. The question, then, is not whether a free society will have institutions, but what kind.
Source: Biehl (1998) The Politics of Social Ecology: Libertarian Municipalism, p. viii
Interested in furthering the discussion of this, or any other related topic? Then feel free to join us here.
Okay, I will clarify. I have now been set straight that I practice organic gardening not permaculture. Although we do also practice wilderness management on our property, aquaponics is a month or two away, bees maybe in spring, food forest well on the way, chooks and ducks integrated into the system etc etc. But Permaculture......no. A lovely Eastern European lady used to say to me in a delicious accent 'if I can't help someone, at least I am going to do them no harm'. That is pretty much where we are at. Vilify us lone voyagers if you want. If that is the attitude of permaculturists and their belief in their system then I will steer clear. I am starting to understand why Paul Wheaton doesn't do ethics discussions over at Permies.com.
Agree with the system. Practice the system. Voice the system. Don't dare to hang around a permaculture forum if you don't do community... heretic!! I am narcissistic and not worthy of your permaculture label. So be it. Fare well in your communities. I genuinely mean that. If community works for you that's great. But there are a whole heap of individuals who choose a lone path for many reasons. Don't assume you have any idea why each individual chooses that journey. It is incredibly sad to try and actually get up the courage to join in and then when you are honest and put it out there that you have difficulty in accepting and participating in community you are disparaged. For shame.
My word Mouse in the House. You seem to have taken this very personally. I have no intention of villafying anyone and if I have caused you offence then I am truely sorry.
I voice an opinion (one I hold strongly) as part od a discussion and I hope the discourse can lead to an understanding of different points of view. That is all.
Yes, when you label 'lone wolves' as selfish, self-serving and with little to contribute, as a 'lone wolf' I DO take that personally and find it offensive. Thank you for the apology.
I am not sure that you do not label yourself ""selfish and self serving when you move away from community.
'Community'... it's such a subjective concept. Show me one definition, and I'll show you one hundred more. It therefore stands to reason, that any attempt to define 'permaculture community' - including its constituent members - is likewise going to be a process fraught in subjectivity.
Personally, I believe anybody that spends time reading and contributing here - diehard communard, and lonewolf alike - is a 'virtual' member of the 'permaculture community'. All that varies in this context, are our respective, self-appointed positions along the communal/individual spectrum.
Now, if we were talking about 'real' community, as in what can be found occurring in an IC for example. Well, then I still hold the position that with good planning and design (e.g. Alexander et al, 1987) that the needs of all - be they communal, individual or anywhere in between - can be well accommodated.
Selfish and self serving? Yes, perhaps that is correct. To avoid the fear. To avoid the anxiety. To avoid the panic attacks, the palpitations, the sweating, the physical freezing up. Have you experienced any of these things Purple Pear? Have you seen a person who suffers from any of these things? A person who cannot even engage in family gatherings. Do you know what being extremely introverted is like? Do you know what it is like to be so shy as a child that you will let the urine run down your legs and hide in a corner because you are too scared to go into a school toilet? Can you fathom, for a moment, the terror to such a child when twenty pairs of eyes stare at you as they sing Happy Birthday and you crawl under the table - what do they want from me?!! Or when you get your first job and they want to put a name tag on you and do team building and you have to decide in miliseconds - when you can breathe - how you can run out that door and keep running....and you do. Then people think you're 'weird'. They start to give you labels when you can't and won't interact like everyone else. So you learn to be on your own. You enjoy it. It is non-threatening. No one is there, looking, judging, wanting. It gives you space to think a lot. To read a lot. To find a way forward.
You can survive there happily. In your own world. You also have to learn to survive out there in the real world for small amounts of time to get stuff done. If you are lucky you meet a person who can understand. They might even help you 'improve'. Along the way you sometimes 'break out' and put yourself out there. Hey the internet is great, you don't have to be face to face. You can interact without so much fear. But then you get too cocky and voice some opinions. Wrong way. Go back. Too many assumptions.
Forget this community shit and get back in your box where people who don't have a clue about who you are can't hurt you. Why does it hurt; you don't like people anyway? Fucked if I know. Guess we all want to be accepted on some sub-conscious level. Too late for me, I am happy living how I do. I try to limit my footprint and don't wish harm on any person. If that means I can't practice Permaculture, but some other, then so be it.
There is no discussion here.
Some people are unable for a variety of reasons to engage in community. My own example is but one. I am sorry if that makes anyone uncomfortable, but that is the truth of it. If I am excluded from permaculture because of that then just tell me now and I will leave this forum. I think that would be sad if that is the sort of duality that exists. Discuss.
Thanks for sharing your very powerful story, MITH. I, for one, am of the firm opinion that all people, regardless of one's ability to be able to 'socialise', should be able to find a comfortable place to work, rest and play within the broader permaculture community. Maybe this comes from my own experience of living with mild Asperger's traits, or maybe from my experience of working with people from the more profound end of the spectrum. Either way, I will always work with other members of any community in order to make every effort of accommodating the needs of all. It's not easy, but we have to try.
Thank you ecodharmamark. I know it is hard sometimes for others to understand but when you feel excluded by others because of the very reasons for your self imposed exclusion it just becomes some sort of negative feedback loop.
hermits contribute - John Chapman 'Johny Appleseed' is my idea of a hermit - and i hold him as a bit of a role model....his actions were ahead of the pioneer settlers...you know his story?...bit of american folk law.....he planted apple trees so the pioneers could get goodly pissed from day one.
I do nature conservation and plant thousands of trees on my re-charge lands - this helps the environment,,and, a whole lot of people i can't stand - benefit from my money and labours....
I am a producer organism - just can't help producing more than i consume.
I am environmentally benign....so even though community sucks for me - i am good for it.
Precisely the sort of one way relationships I've come to expect from my fellow man.
i confess to some shame at my apparent notoriety here....i am sorry....in general terms.
this is the pattern of my life - people tell me i'm a f*ckwit and i agree. just another one of what i personally hate,,,and i identify with the angst.
welcome to my life - but where you just have one of me to contend with...i have got 7 Billion plus of 'likely hostiles' to contend with.
Hermits – Avoidant Personality Disorder?…
Avoidant Personality Disorder?… typical, call it a disorder.
It might be the only sane and rational response to a world dominated by greed and the resultant corruption…entire societies running on the ‘economic rationale’….where the only ones who aren’t playing the game are hiding from it -
Second Hermit: “Hello, are you a hermit by any chance?”
Frank the Hermit: “Yes that’s right. Are you a hermit?”
Second Hermit: “Yes, I certainly am.”
Frank the Hermit: “Well I never. What are you getting away from?”
Second Hermit: “Oh, the usual—people, chat, gossip, you know.”
Frank the Hermit: “Oh, I certainly do—it was the same with me. I mean there comes a time when you realize there’s no good frittering your life away in idleness and trivial chit-chat. Where’s your cave?”
— Monty Python’s Flying Circus
You have some other problems, I do not know what, but some of your answers speak for themselves: https://forums.permaculturenews.org...Nations-to-Control-Internet&p=99373#post99373
You obviously have no understanding for the people who want to help you, then continue to live like a mouse, but you can not run away from permaculture.
In my opinion permaculture is about actions, and can't be separated from the ethics which underlie this design philosophy. "Care of People" is about how we treat other people, I think, not necessarily how we feel about them. The misanthropist who in spite of fear, mistrust and even hatred of other people, who yet cares for them by his actions might be quite an unusual character, or perhaps there are many of them out there. Maybe some hermits planting trees for the next generation.
Dzionik, the post you refer to was made tongue in cheek as I indicated in a subsequent post. Who are the people who are trying to help me whom I do not understand?
Ludi, I think you are right. There are a lot of 'hermits' who care for people they just can't interact face to face very well. How many Aussies here have read 'Possum'? He was a man who lived along the Murray River for decades, living rough outdoors on his own completely outside the 'system'. He did not care to spend any time with people yet he was known to chop a pile of firewood for someone for no gain, simply arriving and leaving unseen and unheard.
Many hermits live their entire lives in a cave praying for humanity. There are many invisible acts of kindness and generousity by those who wish to remain anonymous and out of social interaction. Some deeply care for people. Some do not. Who cares?
In the words of the deep and meaningful Masters Apprentices, "Do what you wanna do, be what you wanna be yeah.........."
Who is anyone to judge another's lifestyle or choice? If you are causing no harm to others, who gives a rat's arse? We all choose who we want to be around, some are around people they would rather not be, but do it out of a sense of guilt and end up resentful.
If everyone who is allowed to be on this forum are only those that strictly adhere to the ethics and principles, then there wouldn't be too many here. Many are in transition and many are just learning.
Let's be inclusive, let people be themselves and learn from each other.
annette, if I had a hugs emoticon they would now be here for you; *hug*hug*hug
Big hugs right back at cha!
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