Permaculture without community?

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by mouseinthehouse, Jan 15, 2013.

  1. mouseinthehouse

    mouseinthehouse Junior Member

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    Okay, so who else here struggles with the Community bit of Permaculture?

    This aspect of Permaculture is not something I want to engage with. My partner and I are very private people who don't seek to socialise or form connections with others.

    I don't think I could ever live in a close communal style of living or share my property with anyone else, nor would I want to live in a town with neighbours around me.

    How many others also have difficulties with this?
     
  2. Ludi

    Ludi Junior Member

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    I have difficulties with this as I have extreme social anxiety ("shyness") and being around people for longer than about an hour exhausts me. However I'm trying to meet other permaculturists in my region through Meetup and I'm working with family members to develop a business on our land.

    It's hard! :p
     
  3. mouseinthehouse

    mouseinthehouse Junior Member

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    Hi Ludi!
    Thanks for the reply. I have the same problem and have had since childhood at one stage leading to panic attacks which thankfully are very rare now. Some how I faced some of that stuff when I studied as a mature age student at Uni and had to give Power Point presentations and attend class practicals etc. That was a challenge but it helped a lot. However, I have 'engineered' my life so that my contact with people is minimal or in small doses. I have a little second hand bookshop and customers just come in quietly one or two at a time. That I can cope with. I can't cope with people coming to my house except immediate family and then fortunately I only have mother in law or my sons which is fine. Despite all that, I enjoy our private and quiet life. I don't feel we are missing anything by not socialising or being members of groups and such. It has had an impact on my two sons though, both of whom have grown up shy as well and this is something I feel responsible for.
     
  4. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

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    My thoughts on this are that...

    In order to change the world you have to change yourself. In essence you need to become a new person.

    I don't think permaculture without community is really permaculture, it is just subsistence living. Having said that, we are 'in transition' - whilst the community is not out there yet as an integrated whole I think we need to act as though it already is. This leaves a space for 'the community' to fill.

    Remember.

    Be aware of your thoughts, they become words
    Be aware of your words, they become actions
    Be aware of your actions, they become habits
    Be aware of you habits, they are your destiny
    Be the creator of your own destiny


    To me this all means that...

    I have a thought such as I don't cope well with strangers, I have that thought often enough and in some ways have had it re-inforced by parents, teachers, family and friends throughout my life. I start to identify with that. I begin to put it in words. I write about it on internet forums for example. This has taken the concept of my 'shyness' from mere thought to physical 'words'.

    Then I use these words more frequently, I speak them aloud to people, I write them down. And then I start to behave in certain ways that perpetuate the story, it becomes action. I stay at home rather than go out. I don't talk to the neighbour over the fence whereas once I might have, but 'I am shy'.

    Then as we take these actions often enough, they turn into habits. They become part of who I am, not only internally, but out there in the physical and social world. I become my thoughts (which in many cases started out as other peoples thoughts).

    And when I have entrenched habits that are difficult to break I have locked myself into a destiny.

    I also postulate further that, I am attracted to permaculture for the very purpose of breaking these thoughts, these words, these habits and this destiny. In fact the very thing I want deep down in my soul, deeper than mere thoughts, is to release myself from this shell of shyness. I am not shy. Am I? No I AM I am not this shell that I have erected to protect the true me, which in fact keeps the real me as a prisoner.

    I am not truly a mouse-in-the-house. I AM something much greater, a metaphorical Lion! Hear me ROAR!!!!

    Serious wouldn't you just truly love to be part of a community, isn't that what you desire most of all?

    Would love to hear your thoughts on this ;)

    I offer all of this not as a belittlement of the way you feel, but as real food for thought from someone who has moved beyond an almost crippling boyhood 'shyness'.
     
  5. mouseinthehouse

    mouseinthehouse Junior Member

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    Thanks Grahame for your thoughts.
    I honestly don't think I want to be a part of a real life face to face community. I love being alone or just with my partner or sons. No more no less. I like taking part in the online forum because no one knows me, no one sees me and no one is going to turn up on my doorstep! :)
    I don't 'do' the family thing either (apart from sons and SO). As long as I know that they are out there somewhere relatively happy and healthy that is ok. I don't want to feel obligated to anyone and I don't want anyone feeling obligated towards me in any way.
    Being with the garden, my animals and my three boys is all I need. If that is subsistence living then I am happy calling it that - whatever it's called its wonderful! Bringing people into my life causes me a great deal of stress and that is not wonderful. :shake:
     
  6. Ludi

    Ludi Junior Member

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    I think being solitary is fine until it isn't. Not needing other people is great until I need them. And then, if I've done without them so far, I may have to do without them when I need them. In other words, if I can't reach out to other people now, I may end up dying alone, or at the very least suffering alone. I don't like that thought at all, so I'm trying to reach out. This may be a very selfish point of view, but, there it is.

    Any discussion about how to build community through permaculture would be very welcome!
     
  7. Unmutual

    Unmutual Junior Member

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    I tend to be solitary, but I will talk to people and introduce myself. I realize, even though I dislike it, the community part of permaculture is just as important as the rest of it. I joined a gardening club because I know I need to change that aspect of myself. Start small!
     
  8. annette

    annette Junior Member

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    Each to their own I reckon.

    Personally I love community and people and sharing ideas and stuff whether it be in person or online. But as i suffer from misophonia I can't live within hearing distance or too close a proximity to others. It's a real nightmare. Community could be as simple as interacting at times with a neighbour. My neighbour fixes my ride on mower for me and I give him produce from the garden in return. He gave me some bathtubs and so he gets some lettuce I have growing in it. Community can be as small or large as you like.
     
  9. mouseinthehouse

    mouseinthehouse Junior Member

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    Some people don't like being with other people. If you are one of those people I suspect one gets lumbered with all sorts of labels or traits or personality quirks real or imagined.
     
  10. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

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    I reckon all you need to do is...

    Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. Which is really just the interpersonal version of be the change that you wish to see in the world. Or as Bill and Ted would say "Be excellent to each other and rock on."

    The key to being able to do this though is to know thy self.

    I'm not a religious chap, but all of that stuff makes perfect sense to me both theoretically and experientially.


    I wasn't saying any one was wrong by any means. As Annette said - to each their own.

    I am just saying that if you wish the world to be different then you need to be different - it will never change whilst you (I) remain the same. I believe the universe is a direct reflection of who you are/who I am at this moment.
     
  11. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    I'm a loner by nature, but I can see the benefit in having community around me. That doesn't mean that I want people turn up on my door step unannounced - but I know who can give me a hand with something that I can't do, or have an abundance of something that I could really do with, or can teach me something useful. And that I can offload my excess or help someone else out. That's what community means to me.
     
  12. Ludi

    Ludi Junior Member

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    eco, that's the kind of community we have with some of our neighbors, we're very fortunate to have them so nearby. We share food and tools.
     
  13. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    G'day All

    I am of the opinion that a carefully planned intentional community can accommodate the needs of all its intended residents, regardless of their self-nominated place on the individual/collective spectrum.

    From each according to her/his ability to each according to her/his need - adapted from Marx

    Cheerio, Markos
     
  14. Ben Stallings

    Ben Stallings Junior Member

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    many ways to interact

    I think it's important to remember that there are more ways to interact than face-to-face, now more than ever.

    Would you say that the rainforests don't interact with the polar regions, just because they don't touch? Would you say that tuna are not part of a housecat's diet because a housecat could never kill a tuna in the wild? Or would you recognize instead that we are all part of community whether we intentionally interact or not?

    I'm a solitary person by nature, and the idea of being self-sufficient is appealing to me. I spent a year touring North America alone on a bicycle, but I was totally reliant on thousands of people who built roads, maintained the cell phone network, transported food to stores along the way, etc. I didn't know any of their names, but they were part of my community. For this reason I've learned that I never do anything alone, even when I imagine I do.

    So my advice would be, rather than imagining you don't have a community, recognize and honor that you do have one, you just interact with it in less direct ways than face-to-face.
     
  15. Unmutual

    Unmutual Junior Member

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    I think the issue is more about being an active member of the community, rather than a hermit. But no, I don't think you can be part of a community without interacting with that community. If you don't feel like you belong because you're not interacting with others, then you're probably right. Buying a shovel that many people had a hand in making is not really interacting with those people. I'm sure there's some psychological stuff about this...?
     
  16. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Senior Member

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    Im very involved with my community am not shy at all and I am a hermit, when I want to be, which is most of the other time.
    When the door is shut and the draw bridge is up Im not budging.
    The rest of the time Im out and about doing community stuff.
    Hoarding of skills and resources,doesn't really improve things.
     
  17. mouseinthehouse

    mouseinthehouse Junior Member

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    Should we not be tolerant of people who want to live this way but help them if and when they need it? One shouldn't be excluded if one has real difficulty interacting with others. I think Markos has it right in what he said.
     
  18. Ben Stallings

    Ben Stallings Junior Member

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    In my understanding, a permaculture design is always designed around the needs and products of the people who will live there, not to suit other people's judgments of what is or is not permaculture. If my design doesn't include livestock, that doesn't mean it's not permaculture -- I just have to import animal products from outside my design. And if eco4560's design doesn't include other people, s/he will have to import human products from outside the design, and that's nobody else's business.
     
  19. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

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    My comment about it not being permaculture may not have come out right. I was thinking more in terms of it being sustainable and more particularly in the long-term. My personal opinion is that permaculture is about sustainability (PERMAnance) and in a way Ben you have illustrated my point. If you don't include livestock in your design and you need to import animal products, then you need to import those products from a sustainable source (another 'permaculture' property?). If you get this external product from a non-sustainable source then your design is incomplete, is it not? Also, to import this product you need a community, at the very least you need to communicate with others. If you don't want to communicate with others then you will have to do pretty much everything for yourself. That is all I was saying. It is a hard boat to row and the permanence of that sort of set up is questionable for me.

    If you choose not to have 'human products (?)' designed into your system that may be perfect for you.
     
  20. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

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    I reckon conspiracy theorists are just jealous because no-one asked them to join! ;)

    I've been watching a TV show called 'Sons of Anarchy' about a motorcycle club. They get up to some dumb shit but there are aspects of it that are a bit like a stone masons club. They do everything for each other - for 'the family'. We as disparate permaculture practitioners could learn a lot from these sort of organisations. It is a model we could easily adopt as 'local chapters'. A well organised sub-culture that really works together, supplies each other etc etc.

    I've been thinking about it quite a lot lately so my few words here don't really convey the sense of it all but, I would really love to belong to an organisation like that.

    Thoughts?
     

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